AIBU about people who say ‘they worked hard to get to where they are’?

[MessyMissyMe]

Generally these are highly paid people who were able to go to University (support from parents/inherited intellect/confidence and self belief built up by secure, happy childhood) or had the resources to start their own business and were lucky enough to get remunerated by employment that they enjoyed and were good at, didn’t have outside influences or stressors that made things harder/took up time they needed to study or build a career.

They basically are just LUCKY and don’t deserve their success anymore than a cleaner or a care worker living hand to mouth in social housing deserves their lack of.

AIBU to get annoyed at people who say this?

I'm making the point that an average 18 year old cannot just "work hard". Its not because they're lazy, it's because it's impossible. But people who have bought property years ago and in cheaper areas seem to think that if everyone just works hard, they can achieve the same thing. They cant.

I'm certainly not calling 18 year olds lazy or suggesting that they should all be out buying flats.

I was responding to the comment

I don't know anyone who has bought a house at 18!

Because as always if a Mumsnetter doesn't personally know someone who has done something then obviously it has never happened.

Same as everyone asking how DH and I bought a flat during uni....must be lying. Well we did, we worked long hours on top of studying, we lived off of student loans and saved our earnings.

And I love the suggestion that my parents helped me out....I grew up on a council estate with a SAHM and manual worker father. I'm not some heiress.

DH's parents are teachers so no family fortune there either.

@Usual2usual

I'm certainly not calling 18 year olds lazy or suggesting that they should all be out buying flats.

I was responding to the comment

I don't know anyone who has bought a house at 18!

Because as always if a Mumsnetter doesn't personally know someone who has done something then obviously it has never happened.

Same as everyone asking how DH and I bought a flat during uni....must be lying. Well we did, we worked long hours on top of studying, we lived off of student loans and saved our earnings.

And I love the suggestion that my parents helped me out....I grew up on a council estate with a SAHM and manual worker father. I'm not some heiress.

DH's parents are teachers so no family fortune there either.

You might not have had wealthy parents but assuming they were loving,non abusive and supportive,that is a privilege in itself

assuming they were loving,non abusive and supportive,that is a privilege in itself

won't argue with that

Is it Derren Brown who said ‘Luck is a state of mind’. Because I think being lucky has a big part of play in being successful, but it’s about believing you are lucky (or having self belief, I suppose) If you think you are lucky, you’ll take the risk, make the effort and believe you can succeed. You may also have a good family, friends or support network you can rely on if it doesn’t work out.
If you are brought up by neglectful parents in poverty it would be much harder to believe you are lucky, and there is no ‘plan b’ if it all goes wrong. Grit, hard work and sheer determination to succeed is all that will get you out of that.

Darren Brown is a bellend with batshit ideas akin to asking a random man at the bus stop
He’s made a fortune peddling woo hoo rubbish

@Usual2usual

Either this was years and years ago when property was dirt cheap, you availed of parents letting both of you live at home for free to save up for several years or you were gifted a massive deposit. There's no other way you can do it these days

It was 11 years ago, Scotland so no tuition fees and no extortionate house prices but no help from parents (they certainly didn't have the money) and I've quite literally no reason to make it up. We sold it at a profit, same as we have done with every house since and recently bought what we assume to be our 'forever home'.

Oh right, so you were lucky to live in Scotland, lucky to have free university and lucky to have cheap property in your area.

Glad we cleared that up.

[quote Elephantsparade]@PalmarisLongus - yes. Its that kind of luck, like graduating or starting work just at the start of a boom rather than during a big crash when theres no jobs but house prices are shored up by government schemes that people dont acknowledge. My little brother is 13 years younger than me and is saddled with much bigger mortgage than i've needed. Sheer luck on my part.[/quote]
100%. I've had extremely bad luck where property is concerned. Graduated into the 2008 financial crisis, couldn't get a decent job but rents were still sky high so the little I did earn was spent on getting by. I'm now 36 and only just buying a one-bed flat, some friends who are coupled up are luckier and able to buy houses, and lots of my friends aren't in a position to buy at all. They haven't messed up or failed, they're just average earners, and nowadays you need to be earning twice or even three times the average national salary to buy a property (and that property will only be a tiny flat if you're in London/the SE).

That's just how it is.

I bought a flat (with my partner) when he graduated and a year after I graduated. It was in Marylebone. Appreciate that we were fortunate that property prices were so low. We also both had some savings which not everyone has. But it was possible.

From memory, the flat cost £112,500 (fully furnished). We had a deposit of around £15k and our joint salaries were around £50k. As interest rates were quite high, we had to be quite careful with our cash flow until our salaries rose. At that point, you could get 100% mortgages (and possibly 105%) so we would have been able to buy it without the deposit.

Oh right, so you were lucky to live in Scotland, lucky to have free university and lucky to have cheap property in your area

Sigh.....I didn't say it wasn't luck now did I.

I was simply responding to the comments suggesting that it was impossible for a student to buy a house either while at or just leaving university just because a load if Mumsnetters had not been able to do it or known anyone who had done it.

[quote BasicDad]**@AlecTrevelyan006* All of those things are - at least in part - dependent on luck*

How so?

Self belief/courage - doesn't require luck. It's a mindset.

Surrounding influences - anyone can chose to NC family, or ditch friends that bring you down. Choice.

Commitments (family/kids) - if you're struggling for resources or time because you started a family before doing well for yourself, well, it was a choice.

Education (self learning/courses) - books are cheap. Self help, personal development. So many resources for next to nothing. No luck required.

Only thing I'd agree with, is that not everyone has their health. Even then, I know loads thag haven't let this hold them back, and get offended if I've presumed it held them back. Cos they felt they'd achieve what they achieved regardless.[/quote]
This. 100 times over.

@mim321

I bought a flat (with my partner) when he graduated and a year after I graduated. It was in Marylebone. Appreciate that we were fortunate that property prices were so low. We also both had some savings which not everyone has. But it was possible.

From memory, the flat cost £112,500 (fully furnished). We had a deposit of around £15k and our joint salaries were around £50k. As interest rates were quite high, we had to be quite careful with our cash flow until our salaries rose. At that point, you could get 100% mortgages (and possibly 105%) so we would have been able to buy it without the deposit.

How on earth did you have £15k deposit on leaving uni?

In answer to some questions regarding how our son bought at 22, he saved from 16. He had summer jobs on building sites and worked every weekend at Tesco. He saved £100 a week. He got a 90% mortgage on a flat. He drove to uni and didn't go into student accommodation. He was 'lucky' to live at home.We ate food from markets and Lidl. Home was a series of rented houses with in the main poor landlords. He now earns a good salary and already pays back his student loan. Yes he was lucky to be born super intelligent, driven and focused. I had answered the op earlier in the thread and thought it was an interesting one. However the naysayers always come out to play on a Friday night implying others are liars. @Usual2usual we bought our first flat when I was 22 as well. No gifts just 100% mortgage in those days.

@LipstickLou

In answer to some questions regarding how our son bought at 22, he saved from 16. He had summer jobs on building sites and worked every weekend at Tesco. He saved £100 a week. He got a 90% mortgage on a flat. He drove to uni and didn't go into student accommodation. He was 'lucky' to live at home.We ate food from markets and Lidl. Home was a series of rented houses with in the main poor landlords. He now earns a good salary and already pays back his student loan. Yes he was lucky to be born super intelligent, driven and focused. I had answered the op earlier in the thread and thought it was an interesting one. However the naysayers always come out to play on a Friday night implying others are liars. *@Usual2usual* we bought our first flat when I was 22 as well. No gifts just 100% mortgage in those days.

£100 a week even for an entire two years would generate about £10k. Nowhere near enough to put down a deposit nowadays in London...but I will remind my DC to "work hard" so they still can't buy a property.

I know people in London who earn £80,k and have managed to buy one bed ex council flats...

@Comedycook. He saved £25k and bought at £220k. He works a financial job so is very savy. We didn't even know he saved it. He bought a small flat within a commuter town. He has a lodger already. That money goes into a pot for his next property. Statistically he would suffer from a glass ceiling due to his heritage however growing up with feast or famine made him very determined. I am very proud of him.

How on earth did you have £15k deposit on leaving uni?

We had summer jobs at uni and saved around £5k plus I'd saved quite a bit from living with my parents in the first year of my job. The rest was gifts from family over the years.

Granted that not everyone is in this position but we could have got a mortgage without the deposit as you could get 100% mortgages then. In fact, I think you could get 105% mortgages so people effectively got cash back for renovations or whatever. We also had, and still have, an interest only mortgage (we have made investments to cover the capital but it provided flexibility in the earlier years when money was tighter).

[quote LipstickLou]@Comedycook. He saved £25k and bought at £220k. He works a financial job so is very savy. We didn't even know he saved it. He bought a small flat within a commuter town. He has a lodger already. That money goes into a pot for his next property. Statistically he would suffer from a glass ceiling due to his heritage however growing up with feast or famine made him very determined. I am very proud of him.[/quote]
I thought you said he saved £100 a week from labouring jobs

@mim321

How on earth did you have £15k deposit on leaving uni?

We had summer jobs at uni and saved around £5k plus I'd saved quite a bit from living with my parents in the first year of my job. The rest was gifts from family over the years.

Granted that not everyone is in this position but we could have got a mortgage without the deposit as you could get 100% mortgages then. In fact, I think you could get 105% mortgages so people effectively got cash back for renovations or whatever. We also had, and still have, an interest only mortgage (we have made investments to cover the capital but it provided flexibility in the earlier years when money was tighter).

So you got money from family and saved your earnings by living with your parents...ok

Probably about £5k of it, yes. Which I've been upfront about and accepted that we were fortunate. The rest we earned.

My only point was in response to the assertion that no one could have bought a flat shortly after leaving university. Our flat in London cost £112k and we could have had a mortgage of up to £150k based on our salaries with no deposit. It was possible then.

@Comedycook
Building sites pay £200 a day to labourers in the south, perhaps half in the North? Eight weeks summer hols. Son could drive at 17 and 2 days. Five lessons paid for by granddad. He renovated an old family car as my father had taught him mechanics. We still have it. He moved on to better things! He is wonder. He will have more to retire on than us.

[quote LipstickLou]@Comedycook
Building sites pay £200 a day to labourers in the south, perhaps half in the North? Eight weeks summer hols. Son could drive at 17 and 2 days. Five lessons paid for by granddad. He renovated an old family car as my father had taught him mechanics. We still have it. He moved on to better things! He is wonder. He will have more to retire on than us.[/quote]
Sorry I thought you said he saved £100 a week.

Anyway I'm sure he is a wonder and you're very proud...that's nice. You also sound like a nice supportive family which is actually far more helpful than just money from my own experience of being brought up in a well off but ultimately neglectful family

Luck has very little to do with in most cases. It’s hard work, grit & determination - most people don’t have all 3. And pride in your work.

My DF has went from literal poverty to multimillionaire, statistically everything was stacked against him (sectarianism, lack of education, single mother family). But he has worked hard - 18 hour days, 7 days a week of hard physical labour. He’s in his 70s and still does the same hours as he know no other way. Most people think they work hard until they hear that.

LipstickLou
@Comedycook. He saved £25k and bought at £220k.

So your DS had a job paying around £65k at 22, straight out of University?, to enable him to get a £195k mortgage?

He was very lucky to walk into a job like that. Graduate jobs are normally less than half that.

He was also very lucky he had family help with driving lessons, a car and even more fortunate there was someone to teach him mechanics! That will save him £000’s in garage costs over his lifetime.

I havent RTFT but it's a thing that comes up on MN a lot.
There are a large proportion of people who think that its linear equation
Work hard = higher pay.
Everyone could earn 100k if they just worked hard and looked for opportunities...
Ignoring family background, economic situation, natural talent or intellect, education opportunities, privilege, circumstances and sometimes luck.

A family member has their own business which they started when they were 21. They had barely any gcses, no financial input from family and grew up in a council house. They bought their own house when they were 21 and now have a fairly expensive house in a nice area. All their own hard work but even then there is an element of luck in that they bought their first house in the early 80s on their own while earning a low wage. Even with all other factors the same, this wouldnt be possible now for someone if that age on the equivalent wage.
I'm not in any way denying that people in highly paid jobs do not work hard, or havent worked hard to get there. But sometimes this is coupled with a head start via a privileged upbringing or an opportunity presenting itself at the tight time, or simply knowing the right people.
I think people dont like to acknowledge any element of luck or fortune because they think it implies they havent worked hard, when a lot of times it is a combination of both.
2 of the jobs I have had (not highly paid I might add) were obtained without a formal interview orapplication process but because I knew the person offering them.

We don’t live in a meritocracy, hard work doesn’t equal progress
Class,nepotism,race,gender are all barriers to be overcome