AIBU about people who say ‘they worked hard to get to where they are’?

[MessyMissyMe]

Generally these are highly paid people who were able to go to University (support from parents/inherited intellect/confidence and self belief built up by secure, happy childhood) or had the resources to start their own business and were lucky enough to get remunerated by employment that they enjoyed and were good at, didn’t have outside influences or stressors that made things harder/took up time they needed to study or build a career.

They basically are just LUCKY and don’t deserve their success anymore than a cleaner or a care worker living hand to mouth in social housing deserves their lack of.

AIBU to get annoyed at people who say this?

@LipstickLou

In answer to some questions regarding how our son bought at 22, he saved from 16. He had summer jobs on building sites and worked every weekend at Tesco. He saved £100 a week. He got a 90% mortgage on a flat. He drove to uni and didn't go into student accommodation. He was 'lucky' to live at home.We ate food from markets and Lidl. Home was a series of rented houses with in the main poor landlords. He now earns a good salary and already pays back his student loan. Yes he was lucky to be born super intelligent, driven and focused. I had answered the op earlier in the thread and thought it was an interesting one. However the naysayers always come out to play on a Friday night implying others are liars. *@Usual2usual* we bought our first flat when I was 22 as well. No gifts just 100% mortgage in those days.

There we go. He was lucky to live at home, so free rent and board where most of us were paying hundreds a month. Glad we got there in the end.

@MidLifeDilemma

Mortgages are at 4 times salary for high credit scores. I am not confirming his salary but he pays 40% tax. He got a first in a tricky subject. Much demand and he was prepared to re locate.
We haven't given him a bean since 18. Didn't have it. Husband key worker. Me carer. Yes he had a granddad who taught him mechanics but also ended up as his main carer at 15. Bum wiping at that age takes some guts. Perhaps he will turn bad and go on the drink and drugs? Who knows. Today he is doing well and he worked for it.

This thread demonstrates very clearly that many people don't understand the concepts of luck and privilege.

@EspressoDoubleShot

We don’t live in a meritocracy, hard work doesn’t equal progress Class,nepotism,race,gender are all barriers to be overcome

It often isn't even those things that make the difference. There are so many people going 'I was brought up poor' who totally gloss over the many advantages they DID have.

I was probably lower middle class, dad with a good job, mum staying home or doing low-paid work, we were living in a nice detached house by my mid teens in a rural area. One of my friends grew up on a council estate in a deprived area of east London and shared a room with 2 siblings. Who was worse off? On paper, it's obviously him, isn't it?

But here's where it gets interesting. I lived so rurally that commuting to further education wasn't an option for me, so right off the bat I was forced to live away from home and pay rent if I wanted to go to uni. My family home was also stressful and toxic for me at the time. I was accepted at a very prestigious London university and had to take the full loan plus work part time just to get by. Meanwhile my friend commuted to the same uni from his family home. No loan, no job, could just focus on his studies. So even before we left uni, I was in thousands of pounds of debt and he had none.

Then after uni, time for jobs...I was completely destitute so pretty much had to take the first thing I was offered so I could pay my rent. My friend was encouraged by his family to take his time and find something good. So while I was working 12 hour shifts in a draining job I hated, he was at home on his laptop browsing job sites. While I was trudging home in the dark, having to stop at Aldi after work and carry all my groceries home in a backpack, he was having lovely dinners made by his mum. He found a good job after 4-5 months and this was a great stepping stone for him into a well-paid career. I simply didn't have the luxury of doing that.

Ten years on, where are we both? I'm just about ready to buy my first property, a one-bed flat in an outer suburb of London. I earn a good salary but not a spectacular one and it's taken me years and years to save up while renting. My friend lives in a four-bed house in a nice part of Essex and owns two other properties in London which he rents out, the first one bought when he was 27 with the money he saved by living at home while earning a high salary. He loves to say he did it all on his own and 'made it' against the odds but did he? From where I'm standing, he's been enormously lucky and privileged but absolutely no acknowledgement from him regarding how lucky his family are to have secure social housing in London and how that enabled him to go to a world-class university and then have an excellent job market on his doorstep. No acknowledgement at all of how having a mum at home doing all his cooking, washing and cleaning enabled him to work very long hours in financial services.

A lot of so-called poor people are actually extremely privileged in the ways that matter!

Middle class woman claims that someone who has done better than her was ‘lucky’ and ‘privileged’ to be allowed to live in a council house.

We’re through the looking glass now, folks. You have no fucking idea what it is like to grow up poor, in a poor area. Check your privilege.

This thread demonstrates very clearly that many people don't understand the concepts of luck and privilege.
yes but we've got to 36 pages, I think it's a losing battle!

OP, your opening post is pretty generalised and you don't know that about people.

I'm a single mum, own house, no money worries, nice life. But...

I come from a free school meals background, an abusive df who objected to the education of women and did everything he could to stop me. With help from a teacher I got into grammar, then into an inner London poly. No parental help at all so I worked all through my degree, no socialising. It was all pretty grim.

With degree got a job and bought a cheap flat with no heating, no furniture, slept on floor for months. Did it up, moved, bought another dump, did it up, moved, while working full time. All work, no play.
By 30 I'd caught up with the graduates who had parental support, and life got better.

Recently I worked for a small company and one of the sales guys had a problem with me because I was 'so posh' despite driving an 11 yo car, eating packed lunches, never spending more than the absolute minimum.

He was like you - sweeping presumptions. In reality, I still struggle to spend money on myself, am scared of ending up back where I started. Maybe you could both walk a mile in someone else's shoes before judging.

@InTheNameOfAllThatIsHonest

@BasicDad

@AlecTrevelyan006 All of those things are - at least in part - dependent on luck

How so?

"Self belief/courage - doesn't require luck. It's a mindset. "
It needs to be nurtured. Self belief is easily destroyed in children and young people. It could be neurological, trauma related etc, you're lucky if you haven't had that.

"Surrounding influences - anyone can chose to NC family, or ditch friends that bring you down. Choice."
Again if you are caught up in FOG, or like myself didn't recognise abuse until my 20s, then you won't have the insight to go NC with family. If going NC with family means not knowing anyone, it is a tough decision. Abused/neglected children are often very isolated. So there is a level of luck to be mentally well and have good boundaries at a young age. If you grow up in a unsupported family in a crap high crime area, especially London, how do you get the resources to get away?

"Commitments (family/kids) - if you're struggling for resources or time because you started a family before doing well for yourself, well, it was a choice."
Some women who have low self esteem get into abusive relationships, especially those from abusive homes. Pregnancy isn't always a choice. Some people want a family, someone to love them. If MH services were better then a lot of people wouldn't have children in difficult circumstances.

"Education (self learning/courses) - books are cheap. Self help, personal development. So many resources for next to nothing. No luck required."
Not having a MH/LD condition is luck. Books aren't cheap. Education that gets you further into work certainly isn't cheap.

@Mintjulia
hello
The voice of reason. I get the posh too.
No one knows what goes on behind closed doors.

The biggest luck of all is good health and then having a caring supportive family no matter what money they have I think.

I wholeheartedly agree with the OP

On a global scale we are all lucky to have been born in the UK in a rich, stable, liberal democracy with a free state education, Heath system and welfare safety net.
How many people sneer at refugees and indeed the much maligned 'economic migrants' 'coming over here taking our jobs' without acknowledging how lucky we are not to have been born in a poor war torn country with no effective government or state institutions.

I have a good job and earn good money but I never fail to see how much of that was down to my great parents, stable home life, good education etc. They didn't have loads of cash. They never bought me a car or put down a house deposit but I was fed and clothed and had holidays and books and theatre trips. I literally would not be here without those advantages I am sure.

If you had a harder time then I guess it's easier to believe you 'did it all yourself' but in reality no man is an island and we probably all enjoyed some advantage along the way even if it's just being born in the UK as stated above.

There's no harm in being proud of what you have achieved because it's certainly pretty easy to throw it all away whatever advantages you have. The problem comes when you blame other people for not succeeding in the face of adversity and label them benefit cheats and scroungers.

@Mintjulia, there was a level of luck in having that teacher in your life and your ability. You were lucky that the grammar system existed. What were your Uni fees like, percentage of deposit needed?
As said, it's rare that luck doesn't play a part.

It is not just luck - it is a mixture. If you think it is just luck you are keeping yourself back and doing yourself down and damaging the chances of your children. Why do the children of immigrants do so well - because they work hard at least in part. It is not because those who are BAME aren't white that they get on and do so well compared with the white working class.

Luck is interesting. My child won top prize in a competition at an air port once. One reason she won was she was sure she would and she picked about 50 entry forms off the floor and scratched them all off - in other words spent ages doing when most people just scratched one off (obviously she was lucky to be at the air port in the first place).

It was not really luck I earned a fair bit in the years my 5 children were born. I worked full time until i went into labour and went back full time when they were 2 weeks (yes weeks not months) old so did not have reduced pay or career damage.

If you want to strip it back to origins, then the single most lucky thing you will ever experience is life itself. The odds in this universe are infinitesimally small.

I'm sorry. But at some point, you need to make a choice and stop blaming not making those choices on luck.

Yes, luck can play a massive factor and make it hugely easier. But even without luck (with a few fringe exceptions) everyone can make a choice. However, excuses are easier.

@lipsticklou Yes, you have to smile. The man concerned drives a new BMW, will spend £25 on a pub lunch and disliked me because I was posh, ie had a degree.

But he wouldn't have considered spending four years alone in an unheated bedsit in south London, buying food from Brixton market when they sell it off cheap on Saturday afternoons, picking blackberries to eat or missing my own graduation because I didn't have the train fare.

Yep, Prada and Schoffel all the way

It isn't JUST luck and it isn't JUST hard work either. You need a bit of both

You can be the luckiest most privileged person in the world and throw it all away or you can have all the worst breaks and still make it but both factors are at play in all of us to a greater or lesser degree.

The issue is the judgement from those who have made it on those who struggle and also on the flip side a learned helplessness attitude from people who believe they can't. Both of those are wrong.

The American dream is all about everyone being able to make it through hard work and dedication but it fails to acknowledge that some people are going to need a whole lot more hard work and dedication than others and that has given rise to a lack of care in their society for people less fortunate because the attitude is they should be able to sort themselves out.

The flip side of that is the lack of ambition that some people have for poor kids. Their family's low expectations and their teachers that keep people down from achieving because 'people like us can't do that' People who are content for a life on benefits because they never think they can do any more.

As so often in these complex things it's not one thing or the other but I do think it's politically dangerous to buy into a narrative that everyone can help themselves and
demonising poor and unwell people. That suits the government and Rich privileged people just fine because then they don't have to pay taxes to help others.
I want to live in a society that is better than that and I most respect rich people who give back whether they made their own money or not.

Luck does play part of it but hard work certainly applies too. Thinking about myself it's not the hard work of the actual job, I know many on minimum wage work harder in their working hours but for gaining qualifications - ( did 2 post grads while a single full time working parent to a baby then toddler, with no support) and interview prep I really work hard, so a bit luck but a lot of smart working

@PalmarisLongus
rwalker
I don't begrudge anyone success . It's just the way of the UK now we seem to hate anyone who's done well and have things.

I've been told I'm lucky and in a privilege position to own our house outright at 43.

I own it Due to the fact I've paid for it since I was 18 paid a mortgage for 25 years like everyone else .
How the hell were you earning enough at 18 to buy a house without a huge deposit that you'd worked and saved years for?

100% mortgage I didn't need a deposit

@Comedycook

Like everyone else? I don't know anyone who has bought a house at 18!

No deposit 100% mortgage You needed to be in reg employment and last 3 wage slips literally got approval there and then different times nearly 30 years ago

@Antsinyourpanta

This thread demonstrates very clearly that many people don't understand the concepts of luck and privilege. yes but we've got to 36 pages, I think it's a losing battle!

But you can still make a success of things without luck/privilege.

Those with luck/privilege can still make a balls up and end up in the gutter.

It's NOT just about luck/privilege, it's ALSO about making the right decisions and taking the right actions.

Nobody is advocating putting everything down to luck and therefore giving up if you had an unlucky start in life. It's just that lots of people with a fortunate start in life underestimate the lasting effects of that imo. And of course lots of people, particularly in countries like the UK, don't consider themselves privileged, when in fact they very much are if you look at global comparisons of wealth and living conditions etc.

It's NOT just about luck/privilege, it's ALSO about making the right decisions and taking the right actions.

I realise that majority of peoples success is down to a combination of things including hard work and sometimes an element of luck. Some people are hard working and get very few lucky breaks or advantages. Others might have every opportunity afforded to them and still waste it.For most I think theres a balance between the two.

In previous generations university education was free so that wasnt neccessarily an advantage over your peers....compare someone a few years later, who had to pay uni fees, the older person who went to uni has had an advantage in that situation through no fault (or effort) of their own.

It's also what you do with it to a certain extent and your attitude to overcoming any disadvantage

I am a lucky person
But I could be luckier mainly if I had been a man

I look at male colleagues who are more successful than me ie nationally/ internationally recognised
When I asked for tips one told me that he updates himself on all latest science papers over breakfast every day
I then imagined me trying that one whilst sorting packed lunches, PE kits, dress up days and petty arguments over breakfast cereal. Of course he has a wife who does that and brings him his breakfast in his quiet office. She works too but, no surprise, her career took a back seat. Just like mine.

So he's lucky that he is a man and his choice to do the minimum for family life whilst progressing his career is socially approved of whilst if I chose to do the same thing it wouldn't be.

But he could choose not to use that advantage and just have a lie in
I could choose to do more work and less family and just wear the social disapproval
It would be harder for me but it's not impossible it would just require some difficult choices.
It's not his fault he was born with that advantage and arguably why shouldn't he use it? Certainly it wouldn't make anything better for me if he did worse.

So it's choice as well as luck and opportunities are still there they just will be harder for some than others.
If you fail to acknowledge where other people might find something harder (like my colleague who thinks he's more successful just because he is cleverer) that's where it's wrong
And if you stop trying and give up because it's easier for other people (like me) that's wrong

Eg I really admire Marcus Rashford

He is probably basically lucky to be good at football and not to have been seriously injured to prevent him using that. Also to live in a place where his talent was spotted, valued and nurtured (I doubt it would have been in eg Wisbech)

He didn't apparently have many other advantages. He had to suffer poverty and racism and he certainly worked hard and made sacrifices to get where he is. His talent would not have been enough.

A lot of other boys in his position could have worked just as hard but not been talented enough, broken a leg or lived in Wisbech. It's a bit of both

But he acknowledges that and here he is using his position to reach a hand down to those who need it. That's the right response to good fortune and hard work not pulling up the ladder after you as so many people seem keen to do eg 2nd and 3rd generation from immigrant families who are anti immigration!

@CovoidOfAllHumanity George Russell went to Wisbech Grammar

Agree...I think when a lot of people say
they worked hard to get to where they are they usually mean they worked smart and it goes without saying that their circumstances (despite any setbacks which they were clearly able to overcome ) afforded them the opportunity to persist and get to a place which they perceive as success . Whereas a lot of people don't get the opportunity to persist. So yes, I think there is an element of good fortune there.

@Silvercatowner

This thread demonstrates very clearly that many people don't understand the concepts of luck and privilege.

Just in the same way as many people don’t understand the concept of hard work. So they cancel each other out. Those in the middle know that everyone needs both.