AIBU about people who say ‘they worked hard to get to where they are’?

[MessyMissyMe]

Generally these are highly paid people who were able to go to University (support from parents/inherited intellect/confidence and self belief built up by secure, happy childhood) or had the resources to start their own business and were lucky enough to get remunerated by employment that they enjoyed and were good at, didn’t have outside influences or stressors that made things harder/took up time they needed to study or build a career.

They basically are just LUCKY and don’t deserve their success anymore than a cleaner or a care worker living hand to mouth in social housing deserves their lack of.

AIBU to get annoyed at people who say this?

@CovoidOfAllHumanity

It's also what you do with it to a certain extent and your attitude to overcoming any disadvantage

I am a lucky person
But I could be luckier mainly if I had been a man

I look at male colleagues who are more successful than me ie nationally/ internationally recognised
When I asked for tips one told me that he updates himself on all latest science papers over breakfast every day
I then imagined me trying that one whilst sorting packed lunches, PE kits, dress up days and petty arguments over breakfast cereal. Of course he has a wife who does that and brings him his breakfast in his quiet office. She works too but, no surprise, her career took a back seat. Just like mine.

So he's lucky that he is a man and his choice to do the minimum for family life whilst progressing his career is socially approved of whilst if I chose to do the same thing it wouldn't be.

But he could choose not to use that advantage and just have a lie in
I could choose to do more work and less family and just wear the social disapproval
It would be harder for me but it's not impossible it would just require some difficult choices.
It's not his fault he was born with that advantage and arguably why shouldn't he use it? Certainly it wouldn't make anything better for me if he did worse.

So it's choice as well as luck and opportunities are still there they just will be harder for some than others.
If you fail to acknowledge where other people might find something harder (like my colleague who thinks he's more successful just because he is cleverer) that's where it's wrong
And if you stop trying and give up because it's easier for other people (like me) that's wrong

Well put

Well we’re all drumming it into our kids that hard work matters, it’s not the result but the effort you put it and how hard you worked.
When they get good results it’s all ‘well done. You worked really hard for that’
So, of course they’re going to think it’s down to their hard work.
And I expect that from my dcs too. If circumstances/luck change then there’s not much we can do about that but adjust to it.

@thedancingbear

Middle class woman claims that someone who has done better than her was ‘lucky’ and ‘privileged’ to be allowed to live in a council house.

We’re through the looking glass now, folks. You have no fucking idea what it is like to grow up poor, in a poor area. Check your privilege.

You're telling me I'm lucky to have paid £120,000 in rent while he paid none?

You're telling me living in a council house makes your life hard and terrible? I live in a flat on a London council estate now, and I'm paying £1200 a month for the privilege. I'd be delighted to have a secure tenancy here for a nominal amount of rent.

Some people really are just away with the fairies, aren't they?

@thedancingbear

Middle class woman claims that someone who has done better than her was ‘lucky’ and ‘privileged’ to be allowed to live in a council house.

We’re through the looking glass now, folks. You have no fucking idea what it is like to grow up poor, in a poor area. Check your privilege.

Oh and by the way, I lived on a council estate with my family until I was 11, both parents having also grown up on council estates. The only reason I count myself as 'lower middle class' is that my dad eventually got a traditionally middle class job when he was in his forties and we were able to buy a house (in a very cheap, rural area). Never had any financial help after 18, never had any advice on money or anything else because both parents are terrible with money and grew up poor.

But sure yes, I'm just sooooo much better off than a person who grew up in a council flat in London! Sure was great having to pay all that rent and not having the option to stay at home for either uni or work.

Perhaps you've never lived in a rural, cut-off area with no opportunities? Maybe you should check your own privilege.

@Antsinyourpanta

This thread demonstrates very clearly that many people don't understand the concepts of luck and privilege. yes but we've got to 36 pages, I think it's a losing battle!

It's becoming pretty clear that a lot of people are just a bit thick, to be honest.

Well we’re all drumming it into our kids that hard work matters, it’s not the result but the effort you put it and how hard you worked. When they get good results it’s all ‘well done. You worked really hard for that’
So, of course they’re going to think it’s down to their hard work.

I praise my dc when they've worked hard, but I've also made sure they are aware of the advantages they have. Not in a "How dare you ever complain about anything?You've got it lucky!" way. But just pointing out to them that some of the kids they go to school with have a very different background and home life to them, so to be careful of judging.

@thedancingbear

Middle class woman claims that someone who has done better than her was ‘lucky’ and ‘privileged’ to be allowed to live in a council house.

We’re through the looking glass now, folks. You have no fucking idea what it is like to grow up poor, in a poor area. Check your privilege.

I don’t know where you’ve been but getting secure housing from the council/housing association is often referred to as ‘lucky’ ime.

Also that wasn’t the posters point. It doesn’t matter if your parents are middle class or loaded, if they aren’t funding your accommodation/utilities and live in the middle of Dartmoor their financial status has no benefit to you financially at the start (point of lowest earning potential) of your career. Anyone who has a safety net of free accommodation in a good location for employment is in a luckier position than someone who doesn’t at that particular point in time.

It's becoming pretty clear that a lot of people are just a bit thick, to be honest.

Ah the old 'someone disagrees with me they must be thick' argument.

What lessons you must all teach your children. Doesn't matter how much you try or how hard you work, might as well just sit and be passive and wait to see what happens.

Just in the same way as many people don’t understand the concept of hard work. So they cancel each other out. Those in the middle know that everyone needs both.

Agree with this 100%.

Perhaps we should all just agree that, in the UK, we are all just lucky we were born here and not in some third world country because even those living in the most awful poverty here are lucky in comparison to many others on this earth.

But sure yes, I'm just sooooo much better off than a person who grew up in a council flat in London! Sure was great having to pay all that rent and not having the option to stay at home for either uni or work.

I'm not going to bother trying to argue with ignorance of this level.

What I will say is this: she/he didn't have the option of living at home for university. Even by your account, they had no fucking choice, because they were properly poor.

As stated, you have no fucking idea what it is like growing up on an inner city estate. You don't know what it's like to attend a school where many of the teachers see their role as simple crowd management. You have no sense of how much it sets you back if no-one in your circle of family and friends has ever had a professional career. You can't imagine what it is like to not be able to visit the local library because it was on the 'wrong' part of the estate and there was a real risk you'd get beaten up on the way there.

It sounds like your friend has succeeded despite significant obstacles and disadvantages. Your account of your own failings reads like a litany of excuses.

Also that wasn’t the posters point. It doesn’t matter if your parents are middle class or loaded, if they aren’t funding your accommodation/utilities and live in the middle of Dartmoor their financial status has no benefit to you financially at the start (point of lowest earning potential) of your career. Anyone who has a safety net of free accommodation in a good location for employment is in a luckier position than someone who doesn’t at that particular point in time.

Again, this is ignorant of the realities for many people. If your parents are middle class and loaded, they will probably be well-educated and their learning will drip down to you. It's likely there will be books worth reading at home and at least some semi-intelligent stuff on the telly. You will have friends and family in professional roles who will understand what career options there are and will be able to guide you. They may give you work experience, which is vital for getting into eg. law. Your school, even if it is not on your doorstep, or is unexceptional, is likely, at least, to be safe.

And on the financial front - even if they do decide that you should 'stand on your own feet', then unless they are complete shits, you can be hopeful of a bailout if things go really tits up. This is important because it speaks to the level of risk you can take in choosing harder-to-access professions (eg. the bar) and/or when buying properties.

All of this more than offsets the 35 minute bus journey into Exeter.

@thedancingbear in fairness I have no idea about the economic impact of living in Dartmoor - I was just trying to think of a fairly remote poorly served location..

I’m broadly agreeing with you but the finer details matter. If someone has a middle class background but parents who don’t (Unluckily for them) provide the benefits you listed then there will be certain critical points that a someone from a poor background will be at an advantage over someone richer than them. Just because a parent is capable of providing something doesn’t necessarily mean they will.

@thedancingbear

But sure yes, I'm just sooooo much better off than a person who grew up in a council flat in London! Sure was great having to pay all that rent and not having the option to stay at home for either uni or work.

I'm not going to bother trying to argue with ignorance of this level.

What I will say is this: she/he didn't have the option of living at home for university. Even by your account, they had no fucking choice, because they were properly poor.

As stated, you have no fucking idea what it is like growing up on an inner city estate. You don't know what it's like to attend a school where many of the teachers see their role as simple crowd management. You have no sense of how much it sets you back if no-one in your circle of family and friends has ever had a professional career. You can't imagine what it is like to not be able to visit the local library because it was on the 'wrong' part of the estate and there was a real risk you'd get beaten up on the way there.

It sounds like your friend has succeeded despite significant obstacles and disadvantages. Your account of your own failings reads like a litany of excuses.

But it doesn't matter, does it? It wasn't just any council flat, it was a council flat within walking distance of one of the best universities in the world. And not just that, but the security of a loving family who encouraged and believed in him and a dad who sat him down and explained about finances. Clearly you're the one with some bigoted ideas if you think 'council flat' = uneducated no hopers. Plenty of families in London social housing are perfectly respectable, hardworking people. Most social housing in London is not a sink estate.

I can imagine all of those things you listed because guess what! I lived on a council estate as well until I was 11 or 12! A properly rough ones, in one of the roughest areas in England! As I explained in a comment which you clearly didn't bother reading. 'Lower middle class' people often started off pretty poor, like I did. I have cousins who have never worked a single day and most of them were pregnant by 16. I had to walk miles to school on my own because the bus wouldn't come onto our estate because kids would smash the windows with stones. While I was walking I often got pelted with bottles and other missiles thrown out of cars people from my estate were joyriding.

But that doesn't matter, does it? All you saw was 'middle class' and there went the knee jerk bigotry and narrow mindedness.

@Cornettoninja
Interesting observation. My sister turned down an assisted place for her son at a private school. She also turned down the job they offered her. Her reason? Snobs apparently. She is a bitter and twisted individual. She has no mortgage, 4 holidays a year and within the last four years her son got the degree he should have got 10 years ago. Her reasoning, she didn't believe in him. He wasn't clever enough blah blah. All turned out to be bollocks! Her relationship with him? Strained. His wife, too posh for him. She hated me as child for being an achiever, taller, thinner, whatever. My children have been privileged because if we had it, they could have it. I am wearing a 22 year old linen shirt as I type. My husband home from a 14 hour shift. key worker and son of a Windrush family. Safe loving home, yes. Food is what you get but a household of books and learning.

@thedancingbear

Also that wasn’t the posters point. It doesn’t matter if your parents are middle class or loaded, if they aren’t funding your accommodation/utilities and live in the middle of Dartmoor their financial status has no benefit to you financially at the start (point of lowest earning potential) of your career. Anyone who has a safety net of free accommodation in a good location for employment is in a luckier position than someone who doesn’t at that particular point in time.

Again, this is ignorant of the realities for many people. If your parents are middle class and loaded, they will probably be well-educated and their learning will drip down to you. It's likely there will be books worth reading at home and at least some semi-intelligent stuff on the telly. You will have friends and family in professional roles who will understand what career options there are and will be able to guide you. They may give you work experience, which is vital for getting into eg. law. Your school, even if it is not on your doorstep, or is unexceptional, is likely, at least, to be safe.

And on the financial front - even if they do decide that you should 'stand on your own feet', then unless they are complete shits, you can be hopeful of a bailout if things go really tits up. This is important because it speaks to the level of risk you can take in choosing harder-to-access professions (eg. the bar) and/or when buying properties.

All of this more than offsets the 35 minute bus journey into Exeter.

What part of 'lower middle class' do you not understand?

We were solidly working class until I was in secondary school. Poor even. My dad went to university as a mature student and was the first in his family to do so. We didn't have a car until I was about 7. We never had anything on the telly that wasn't Eastenders or Coronation Street and I don't remember my parents ever helping with homework. I almost always had to make my own tea, usually microwave chips or something from a can, because my parents weren't home until late. I never got any guidance at all on university, finances or career options because they just didn't know. My dad advised me to go into the field he went into despite it not suiting me at all, and that was it. I had to figure it all out for myself.

I have never had a bailout and was told from the age of about 12 that there would never be one, so I'd better sort my own life out. The idea that my parents would have supported me while trying to take bar exams is risible. I have a long-term illness as well as neurological disabilities and have always been expected to stand on my own feet regardless. I had to take the first job I could find after graduation so I wasn't homeless, which is right there in my post.

Everything you've said 'middle class' people get is exactly what my 'poor' friend availed of - family support, guidance, a safety net, the ability to be picky about jobs without starving to death or becoming homeless, taking risks. And yet just because his family home was a council flat rather than a house in a rural area, you think he's somehow had a much harder time than me?

It's like all you do is read 'middle class' and it's like a flashing light goes off in your brain and blinds you to the actual facts I'm telling you. You do realise 'lower middle class' doesn't mean a nice cosy comfortable life of listening to Radio 4 and going to the theatre?

Good God.

I grew up in a council flat, then a council house, on an estate that could only be described as violent. I know exactly what these places are like. There are good people but lots of real shitness too. So your accusations of prejudice and bigotry are unwarranted.

I lived in South London for 15 years and can assure you that most of the social housing there (as opposed to gentrified ex-council blocks) are fucking horrific.

I wonder what your friend's view of your respective upbringings were.

As I say, you need to look at your own privilege and take responsibility for your own shortcomings. You have been dealt, at worst, an average hand, and bemoaning how your mate from a council flat had all the breaks is pretty undignified.

@Rozzile

If you passed the bar against the odds, good on you. Too many people think they are dealt the wrong cards.
My comments about my son buying a flat at 22 were derided. However I have never mentioned my parents until yesterday, my friends don't know (gambler father, bi polar mother). When they were well they were fabulous. My grandfather was a high court judge. I read law. Then an MBA. We had nothing as children but they loved us. We were encouraged to be the best we could be. I am one of four. Two have BsC /BA, and both my younger brother and I have MBAs, paid for by us! Of 9 grandchildren, 6 have degrees. Three broken homes but they endured. I don't know the answer to social mobility but it is my life's work.

@thedancingbear

I would say that social housing in London definitely trumps a lower middle class life in a rural area but you have been unable to counter any of my points with an actual argument, just loads of mindless dross about what you think 'middle class' means. You definitely don't seem to understand what 'lower middle class' means.

I'm sure my friend thinks like you - unable to see the many privileges that living in London provides. Perhaps you should go and spend some time in a non-rich rural area and see how you like it. No youth clubs, no mentoring schemes, none of the things my friend got to avail of in London. You seem to think 'rural' means a lovely life of riding horses and going for afternoon tea, not the actual reality of being a prisoner at home because there are no bus routes and being forced to spend a fortune if you want to go to university or ever get a job that isn't working in the local chicken processing plant.

I would say I was dealt an above average hand - my point is that my friend had it much, much better in many ways. He had far more support from his family and others, a far better financial situation and a giant safety net in the form of a free place to sleep in London while he took his time thinking about jobs. How is that not privilege?

I would say that social housing in London definitely trumps a lower middle class life in a rural area

You said your friend shared a room in a council flat with two siblings. What sort of environment is that to be trying to study for your finals?

You have regressed over a series of posts from a nice house in a nice area and having a SAHM for much of the time, to living on a council estate, eating from tins of beans because of your absent parents, and having things thrown at you on the way to school.

I would agree with you that proximity to London or another big city is, all things being equal, an advantage. Against that, I used to be involved in graduate recruitment for my employer, and I can tell you know that we probably have dozens of times more applications from backgrounds like yours, than from inner city estates. The ones who get as far us from the latter tend to be truly exceptional individuals, even if their estate is only a few miles from the office.

Yes, YABU.

DH has made a success of himself. He has had some good luck - the NVQ he went to sign onto at college was full so he did his second choice, which is the area he ended up building his business in. He has always had a massive drive to succeed but this could have been something he was born with, or it could have been something he learnt when he was being abused as a child. Were these things luck? Maybe, to an extent. But neither of those things would have meant anything if DH hadn't put the hard work in, done the overtime, cancelled plans to focus on work, didn't go on holidays for a time to put money back into growing his business, lived on super noodles for months because we were poor, our families are poor, we weren't entitled to any government help, while we worked seven days a week to make a business.

I'm lucky because of him, but luck hasn't got him to where he is today.

@thedancingbear

I would say that social housing in London definitely trumps a lower middle class life in a rural area

You said your friend shared a room in a council flat with two siblings. What sort of environment is that to be trying to study for your finals?

You have regressed over a series of posts from a nice house in a nice area and having a SAHM for much of the time, to living on a council estate, eating from tins of beans because of your absent parents, and having things thrown at you on the way to school.

I would agree with you that proximity to London or another big city is, all things being equal, an advantage. Against that, I used to be involved in graduate recruitment for my employer, and I can tell you know that we probably have dozens of times more applications from backgrounds like yours, than from inner city estates. The ones who get as far us from the latter tend to be truly exceptional individuals, even if their estate is only a few miles from the office.

The siblings had long moved out by then. He shared his room as a child/teenager, as did I! He had his own room by university. I shared a room with a roommate for my first two years of uni because I couldn't afford the single room option - is that OK in your eyes? Is it only people in social housing who suffer from sharing? Also, ever heard of a library? That's where everyone studied, because most students don't exactly have a peaceful home environment conducive to learning!

I said we lived rurally. It was certainly a lot better than the sink estate I lived on before that but it definitely isn't your twee idea of what 'rural' means. The main activity for teens was glue sniffing and drinking in fields. You clearly have absolutely no idea of how few opportunities there are for rural teenagers with no money or 'connections'. Those who couldn't or didn't move away for uni are basically all stuck in minimum wage jobs or on the dole...how exactly is that so much better than a London council estate? I'm sitting in a flat on a South London estate right now as I speak, and there are loads of youth clubs, sports clubs, etc. around here. So many opportunities I'd have absolutely killed for as a teenager.

Do you genuinely just not understand what 'lower middle class' means? I've tried to explain it time and time again and I still don't think you get it. It's not posh, it's definitely not wealthy, it's generally not cultured or any of the other rubbish you keep waffling on about. Lower middle class generally means office jobs, no kind of family wealth or private education. It can mean your parents owned their home but they might well have really struggled to afford it and it could be a source of stress - how is that so much different from a secure council tenancy?

Do you genuinely just not understand what 'lower middle class' means?

I have a limited conception of what a 'lower middle class' existence means because I have never lived one. But it's a reasonable inference that you were physically safe from harm, warm enough, had adequate clothes, weren't in food poverty, your parents could afford a cheap laptop if you needed one, or a train ticket to an interview.

I can appreciate it must by shite and boring as a teenager, and can completely understand why people would seek to leave at the earliest opportunity.

Now, do you understand what it is to live on a shithole council estate, on a low income, where you potentially have none of those things? Where you can't fucking get to the library after a certain time because there was a real possibility that you could be assaulted (we can all make up our own realities on here, but I can absolutely assure you this was a feature of my upbringing).

On the proximity-to-London point - my OH used to teach in a school in a ropey bit of SE London. There were kids she taught who had never been to central london. There were some who had never been on a train, despite there being a station a couple of hundred yards from the school. I've recognised that location can be an advantage but if that is how your family operates then it is really no better than being out in the sticks.

You seem to be hoist by your own petard - you're arguing that others cannot appreciate what rural or provincial lower middle class life is like, but you seem to have no conception of the realities of others' existences either.

@thedancingbear

Do you genuinely just not understand what 'lower middle class' means?

I have a limited conception of what a 'lower middle class' existence means because I have never lived one. But it's a reasonable inference that you were physically safe from harm, warm enough, had adequate clothes, weren't in food poverty, your parents could afford a cheap laptop if you needed one, or a train ticket to an interview.

I can appreciate it must by shite and boring as a teenager, and can completely understand why people would seek to leave at the earliest opportunity.

Now, do you understand what it is to live on a shithole council estate, on a low income, where you potentially have none of those things? Where you can't fucking get to the library after a certain time because there was a real possibility that you could be assaulted (we can all make up our own realities on here, but I can absolutely assure you this was a feature of my upbringing).

On the proximity-to-London point - my OH used to teach in a school in a ropey bit of SE London. There were kids she taught who had never been to central london. There were some who had never been on a train, despite there being a station a couple of hundred yards from the school. I've recognised that location can be an advantage but if that is how your family operates then it is really no better than being out in the sticks.

You seem to be hoist by your own petard - you're arguing that others cannot appreciate what rural or provincial lower middle class life is like, but you seem to have no conception of the realities of others' existences either.

Right, so then maybe you should listen to someone who has lived both existences rather than making assumptions and downright making things up?

My friend had all those things you state. Plenty of people in social housing are safe from harm, warm enough, not in food poverty, etc. In fact, many users of food banks are the lower middle classes who actually are worse off than people on benefits (including council housing), because they just can't afford the essentials without help, especially if they lose their job and have no savings or safety net. My cousins literally became homeless about a decade ago when my aunt lost her home because she couldn't pay the mortgage...she was relieved to finally get a council flat and a secure roof over her head.

It's not about being 'shit and boring' when you live rurally, it's about literally having no opportunities. I couldn't get to the library when I was at school either, because it was about 15 miles away! Lots of people I went to school with have total dead-end lives, are addicted to drugs, etc. Once again, why do you think this is better than London? I am aware that the most disadvantaged in London live as you describe, but I disagree that it's the most common experience for a family in social housing. All the neighbours on my floor grew up on this estate in this part of SE London, the kids are going to college, some have gone to uni, many of them are working in central London. Yes, there might be kids in London who have never been to central London, but the vast majority have way more options in life than kids in downtrodden rural areas in the North with absolutely nothing there!

@ComeTheFuck0nBridget

Yes, YABU.

DH has made a success of himself. He has had some good luck - the NVQ he went to sign onto at college was full so he did his second choice, which is the area he ended up building his business in. He has always had a massive drive to succeed but this could have been something he was born with, or it could have been something he learnt when he was being abused as a child. Were these things luck? Maybe, to an extent. But neither of those things would have meant anything if DH hadn't put the hard work in, done the overtime, cancelled plans to focus on work, didn't go on holidays for a time to put money back into growing his business, lived on super noodles for months because we were poor, our families are poor, we weren't entitled to any government help, while we worked seven days a week to make a business.

I'm lucky because of him, but luck hasn't got him to where he is today.

So you say he’s had some luck.

It can be both luck and hard work 🤨

Wow this thread is still going .

I haven’t read all the subsequent posts but I see what I was trying to point out in my update after being called bitter has not been picked up on . I’m not really that bitter, I’ve accepted my lot, but it doesn’t mean I can occasionally get irritated by other people’s lack of self awareness

I did work hard and overcome some very difficult adverse experiences but still I won’t ever be successful or even remotely wealthy, by moot of not having the luck that someone who didn’t have to give up their career due to having a disabled child has.

I cannot believe someone actually said it was my choice to stop working as if I had any.

This thread is a case in point that most people are totally incapable of empathising with something they haven’t experienced themselves and that success quite often leads to arrogance and self grandiosity. We haven’t evolved much.

In all honesty, OP, you talk about lack empathy but I think you also lack it yourself. Sometimes we all can.

13 years ago on a starting salary of 40k (were you still on that starting salary or more at the point you left) and a husband who earned a bit more, you did have more choice than alot of people when it comes to having a disabled child.

Having a husband in that situation is also the same sort of luck you are talking about alot of people having. I would imagine alot of people in similar situations to you, may also think you are lucky because its all relative.

A single parent (or someone whose husband/partner earns 20k) with a disabled child/ren, is in a very different situation and may feel like you did have more choices and still have more and that makes you lucky. And the fact that you had those choice, is also down to luck.

Not really sure how that's much different to you thinking people who earn more money are just lucky.

We all have people we can look at and feel thet are in a better situation and feel they are only in that better position due to luck. Even if the position they are in is very difficult. It may still be better than someone else's and that person may feel its better simply down to luck.