To think school uniform policy should be enforced?

[Runoverbyllamas]

Otherwise what’s the point?
Why bother to have a uniform, state it in detail online and in welcome packs, and then say nothing when kids aren’t wearing correct uniform?
We’re talking a state school with nothing needing to be logo, supermarket brands are fine and the colours are easily available.

A friend has had enough because she made sure her kids were dressed correctly and then others in the class were wearing leggings, trainers, wrong colours etc, and her kids were getting cross about it. On approaching the Head all she got was ‘be glad you can afford to get the correct uniform’. The kids who hadn’t were in premium brands ffs! Plus my friend actually saved to make sure she had the right things, she doesn’t have a lot of money to spare.
The school PTA also does preloved at very small cost to parents, so there’s just no excuse.
One of the more annoying parents of the kids in trainers told her that ‘PFB doesn’t like school shoes’ as if that’s a good enough reason.
This has been going on for at least a year now, and friend is getting more and more frustrated that nothing is being addressed.

AIBU?

@IWantT0BreakFree

No, they didn't change the uniform and give me 24 hours to comply, reading it back I didn't explain vert well, sorry.
The school board changed and the new school board that took over were very strict on uniform compliance.
My DD had the correct uniform, but her shoes broke beyond repair and we had trainers or another pair of shoes that didn't meet the standards. We were allowed one day to replace them where she was allowed to wear something that didn't meet the uniform code, unfortunately I happened to be on 2x14 hour shifts that day and the day after and wasn't going to be paying for next day delivery when a)I wasn't going to actually be in to receive the package and b) it added even more cost to the shoes that didn't need to be spent, and I'm on a budget. DD went to a friend after school, and wouldn't have had time after school to get back, get changed and travel on public transport to the nearest place to get herself new shoes and back again, before dark, and I wasn't happy at her doing that alone.
I told them that the shoes would be replaced at the weekend, and she would have new ones by Monday. It meant 2 days in trainers. She was isolated the second day for not meeting the uniform - which obviously singled her out.
I was lucky, I didn't have to wait until pay day to replace them, I have had to wait until pat day to replace some things of that expense before and was told by DD some kids were isolated as she was, until their uniform was replaced and correct.

That, as much as anything singles out kids who's parents can't/can't afford to replace lost/damaged uniform within their 'generous' 24 hours policy for replacement, so the idea that it's a 'leveller' doesn't ring true for me, because kids who's family can't afford to replace specifically detailed items immediately are singled out by the school and removed from their lessons to learn in isolation.

@Guineapigbridge

What sort of culture are you establishing when it's about compliance and conformance instead of comfort and expression. I think uniform is bullshit. I'll toe the line for the kids who can't afford cool clothes or who are anxious about impressing their peers or whatever, but I really really don't see the point in forcing rules about earrings or hair dye or shoes onto kids. Let them be free.

They're freer when they all look alike and don't have to spend time worrying about appearance. Plus, having a strict uniform gives them a safe way to rebel against authority. Better to wear a wonky tie than take up smoking etc.

@icedcoffees

Our school is the same, no expensive stuff needed, simple rules but they can't seem to be upheld by the school or stuck to by parents. They should wear black trousers, skirts etc, but so many are in grey.

Christ - what difference does it make?!

Because if there are rules, they should be enforced properly. I think a uniform looks smart but should be just that - uniform, the same. The clue is in the name.

Because if there are rules, they should be enforced properly. I think a uniform looks smart but should be just that - uniform, the same. The clue is in the name.

Well if that's what you choose to spend your time getting annoyed about, knock yourself out

The colour of someone's trousers has no bearing on their ability to study geography.

My DD doesn't wear standard uniform. No one else's business why.

@icedcoffees

Because if there are rules, they should be enforced properly. I think a uniform looks smart but should be just that - uniform, the same. The clue is in the name.

Well if that's what you choose to spend your time getting annoyed about, knock yourself out

The colour of someone's trousers has no bearing on their ability to study geography.

I never said it affected anyone's learning ability, just that if the rules are there, they should be followed.

The question is....
If the school are not enforcing then it's up to friend to make her own decision!
Is it a battle she wants with her kids or not?

As the sensible posters on here have stated if the Head Teacher doesn’t care about uniform rules then there shouldn’t be any or they should be very limited.

People’s views on whether uniform should exist or not are utterly irrelevant here, this school has a uniform and says they it will be enforced and then doesn’t.
As always it’s the people who take note of policies and do their best who are penalised and others do whatever they want with no consequences.
The kids who have the wrong uniform are rarely the poor ones, they are always the ones with brand new £100 trainers instead.

Get over yourself. Uniform is horrendously expensive and should be downgraded to simple single coloured items without logos that can be bought from supermarkets. Uniform shops should be abolished.

Surprised at how many people don't see a problem with this when she's made an effort, saved etc, to comply with what were presented as rules only to see she needn't have bothered. That's obviously going to be annoying. If it's optional they should bloody well just say so.

Oh and PP, if you read the OP, it is plain items of uniform widely available and without logo etc.

At DS’s school you have to wear logo’d school blazer, logo’d school shirt and tie.

Black trousers or skirt and 100% black shoes with no names or logos (even if they are also on black)

Coats have to be taken off before entering the school gate as they are no allowed to be worn on school grounds.

Every morning they have uniform monitors at all the gates, if you arrive and are not wearing the complete correct uniform and you don’t have a note in your planner you are sent home to change.

If anything breaks or is lost you have three days to replace it or the child is put into isolation.

They also have a pe uniform, that consists of two different pe tops and a pe jacket.
All is compulsory.

It’s a pita and it’s expensive but the school uniform shop is on site and the also run a second hand uniform shop, the profits from which go towards a uniform fund for families struggling with the cost that you can apply for, they also ‘lend’ items to students if you need a bit of time to buy a certain item.

This isn’t a private or posh school, it’s a secondary school in a small market town.
However it is one of the top schools in the county, it’s an excellent school with very good sports, computing, art and languages programs and they take kids from anywhere (one of DS’s friends lives 20 miles away).
The strict uniform policy is the price we pay for an excellent school, so IMO it’s worth it.

And with secondhand schemes available...

The DC’s school have a very strict uniform and are also very strict about how it is worn.

Top buttons done up, tie covering top button, shirt tucked in, shoes polished and blazers and jumpers on at all times unless a teacher gives permission is the expectation.

Things like coats and bags all have to have the school logo.

Detentions are given for non-compliance. It think it’s great- everyone looks smart and there are clear standards.

The DC do sometimes get annoyed- DS1 wasn’t even allowed long trousers at his prep until year 6. But I do think a strictly enforced uniform policy is beneficial overall.

@Cheeserton

Surprised at how many people don't see a problem with this when she's made an effort, saved etc, to comply with what were presented as rules only to see she needn't have bothered. That's obviously going to be annoying. If it's optional they should bloody well just say so.

Only OP said the friend is annoyed because her kids are kicking off, relentlessly. My issue would be with my own children here, not anyone else's.

[quote Maverickess]@IWantT0BreakFree

No, they didn't change the uniform and give me 24 hours to comply, reading it back I didn't explain vert well, sorry.
The school board changed and the new school board that took over were very strict on uniform compliance.
My DD had the correct uniform, but her shoes broke beyond repair and we had trainers or another pair of shoes that didn't meet the standards. We were allowed one day to replace them where she was allowed to wear something that didn't meet the uniform code, unfortunately I happened to be on 2x14 hour shifts that day and the day after and wasn't going to be paying for next day delivery when a)I wasn't going to actually be in to receive the package and b) it added even more cost to the shoes that didn't need to be spent, and I'm on a budget. DD went to a friend after school, and wouldn't have had time after school to get back, get changed and travel on public transport to the nearest place to get herself new shoes and back again, before dark, and I wasn't happy at her doing that alone.
I told them that the shoes would be replaced at the weekend, and she would have new ones by Monday. It meant 2 days in trainers. She was isolated the second day for not meeting the uniform - which obviously singled her out.
I was lucky, I didn't have to wait until pay day to replace them, I have had to wait until pat day to replace some things of that expense before and was told by DD some kids were isolated as she was, until their uniform was replaced and correct.

That, as much as anything singles out kids who's parents can't/can't afford to replace lost/damaged uniform within their 'generous' 24 hours policy for replacement, so the idea that it's a 'leveller' doesn't ring true for me, because kids who's family can't afford to replace specifically detailed items immediately are singled out by the school and removed from their lessons to learn in isolation.[/quote]
I think that was entirely inappropriate and unfair of the school and would be personally complaining to the headteacher and to the governors. Not being able to replace in 24hr is entirely expected in my view for most people. I could afford a replacement but would struggle where I live to pick up something that fit in time and I also work, sometimes away.

Good for the headteacher.

The obsession with uniform in this country is ridiculous. Other countries have no such restrictions and seem to do perfectly well (if not better).

The idea that it hides the difference between the more affluent and poorer children is just wrong. Children are well aware of the differences anyway, sad as that is.

Last time I checked having a pair of shoes with a logo or a slightly tighter pair of trousers did not impact on how you learn. The fact that children are put in isolation for these things is just horrendous.

My son goes to a school that has no uniform, he is happier and learning better than he ever has...turns out that him not having the right jumper on wasn't what was stopping him getting on!

Clean, comfortable and covered. Anything else is not needed.

If the school is in a poor catchment area , then she may feel that it will be a waste of time , some parents just won't engage. but if their children don't get educated because they are supended, excluded etc then it just perpetuates the problem .

I think the issue in this situation isn't whether or not people agree with uniform. It's that the school supposedly has a uniform policy which they seem to be choosing not to enforce.

If they are not fussed about what their students wear, that's fine, they need to perhaps do away with the uniform and have a policy that says something along the lines of smart casual or casual but no crop tops/football shirts/whatever else is deemed inappropriate.

Having a policy and not then enforcing it is bonkers. Would make me wonder what other policies are not enforced

YANBU. The uniform policy is there for a reason; I would be kicking up a major fuss about this.

It’s pointless to have rules and not enforce them imo

@IWantT0BreakFree

I work in a school. I think uniform is extremely important. It's a leveller and helps to disguise the huge disparity between the haves and the have-nots. Our school is shite at enforcing uniform and it's heartbreaking to see the social struggles that some of the kids have as a result. On the one hand, it's a symptom and not the root of the problem I.e. those children who are excluding others on the basis of how "uncool" they are need to actually learn to be less shallow, less judgemental, less materialistic and more accepting and kind. On the other hand, having a uniform policy (which is upheld) is one easy way for schools to help reduce the impact of the wealth gap during the school day. It's the low hanging fruit. I appreciate that there's an argument that uniform stifles creativity, but I see little creativity from the families who flout the uniform rules. Those children are generally identikit copies with the same expensive branded leggings, sportswear, trainers etc. It's not the kids with hand-me-downs and Asda trainers for PE who are desperate to wear their own clothes.

Sorry, but it isn't a leveller. I used to think that, but then my eldest DD got into a grammar school (state) and I had to spend over £400 that I just didn't have to get her logoed uniform , some of which had to be personally embroidered with her name!

We were not amongst it's wealthiest parents. There was no level playing field when it came to financial stuff. They changed uniform when DD was just about to go on study leave in year 11 (so just about 3 weeks from no longer needing the standard uniform) and simply couldn't understand it when I and some other parents told them that we simply couldn't afford the £200 it would cost to furnish the girls with new blouses and skirts which would hardly be worn

In the end they did back down, but it was stressful and unkind.

Those were just two experiences among a number which taught me firmly that my belief that school uniform was great and a "leveller" had been utterly bollocks. I have now completely changed my mind and think school uniform should be consigned to history.

OP, why is your friend all het up over this absolute non-issue? It is not up to her to dictate the school's uniform policy, and she also needs to chill out a lot more with her own children.

The headteacher is being sensible here. Uniform is there for those who want it, but isn't compulsory. What's the problem?

I'm really not sure they are allowed to have mandatory uniform in Scotland. Although the school can strongly suggest. I think the waters have been muddied a bit by not having school uniform last year (in our school at least). I let the kids choose trainers but they have black as per school guidelines indoor shoes. Poloshirts and school bottoms but am not fussed by interesting tights/ leggings/socks rather than sensible plain ones. No one ever says anything. I think what happens is a few people start slacking on the uniform front the rest of the kids follow. An email goes round and we all tighten up for a bit then the cycle repeats ad infinitum.

I think a lot of people are missing the point - it’s not about whether school uniforms are generally good or bad, it’s about a school stating they have a policy and then not enforcing it

Yes, agreed. If the school doesn't want to spend all day and every day going on about trainers with too much or too little heel, it should relax the policy but enforce the policy it has.

To be honest this is something they can't win on. If they have a strict uniform people complain (and often rightly eg having to replace an item within 24 hours which isn't realistic). If the policy isn't strict enough you have people moaning the kids don't look smart enough.

It's like homework policies - some parents complain there is too little homework and others complain there is too much (though I am firmly in the latter camp).