To think school uniform policy should be enforced?

[Runoverbyllamas]

Otherwise what’s the point?
Why bother to have a uniform, state it in detail online and in welcome packs, and then say nothing when kids aren’t wearing correct uniform?
We’re talking a state school with nothing needing to be logo, supermarket brands are fine and the colours are easily available.

A friend has had enough because she made sure her kids were dressed correctly and then others in the class were wearing leggings, trainers, wrong colours etc, and her kids were getting cross about it. On approaching the Head all she got was ‘be glad you can afford to get the correct uniform’. The kids who hadn’t were in premium brands ffs! Plus my friend actually saved to make sure she had the right things, she doesn’t have a lot of money to spare.
The school PTA also does preloved at very small cost to parents, so there’s just no excuse.
One of the more annoying parents of the kids in trainers told her that ‘PFB doesn’t like school shoes’ as if that’s a good enough reason.
This has been going on for at least a year now, and friend is getting more and more frustrated that nothing is being addressed.

AIBU?

They're freer when they all look alike and don't have to spend time worrying about appearance. Plus, having a strict uniform gives them a safe way to rebel against authority. Better to wear a wonky tie than take up smoking etc.

Strange how children in other countries without these weird uniform rules manage not to be psychologically scarred by wearing their own clothes at school, and also manage to cope with authority and any rebellion they want to make against it without universally turning to smoking and booze.

Every morning they have uniform monitors at all the gates, if you arrive and are not wearing the complete correct uniform and you don’t have a note in your planner you are sent home to change

If anything breaks or is lost you have three days to replace it or the child is put into isolation.

Good grief, what a bad use of expensive staff time. And punishing the child for the parents' actions is bang against official guidance. The school is hardly setting a good example by breaking the rules itself.

But it doesn't work like that when the rules you are enforcing are stupid

Plenty of people don't think uniform rules are stupid. Millions upon millions of adult jobs have uniforms or clothing rules - offices, retail, cafes, armed forces, emergency services, medical, fitness/gyms. Much of what childhood is all about is preparation for adulthood. In the past children didnt spend every minute of their time playing, they would have been with adults learning important skills & social rules in preparation for adulthood. This is the modern day equivalent.

Good grief, what a bad use of expensive staff time. And punishing the child for the parents' actions is bang against official guidance.

My nieces school brought in similar.it didnt result in punishing any kids after the first week because (what a coincidence) suddenly everyone could in fact get hold of uniform and wear it.

@GreenLakes

The DC’s school have a very strict uniform and are also very strict about how it is worn.

Top buttons done up, tie covering top button, shirt tucked in, shoes polished and blazers and jumpers on at all times unless a teacher gives permission is the expectation.

Things like coats and bags all have to have the school logo.

Detentions are given for non-compliance. It think it’s great- everyone looks smart and there are clear standards.

The DC do sometimes get annoyed- DS1 wasn’t even allowed long trousers at his prep until year 6. But I do think a strictly enforced uniform policy is beneficial overall.

You wouldn't think it was great if it was your child who had sensory problems and couldn't cope with a tie at the neck or the feel of long sleeves, or if they had executive functioning/organisation difficulties and could lose or forget things despite their best efforts. Giving detentions for being disabled is a direct breach of the Equality Act - again, not a great example to set the children.

And think about the time the school spends enforcing all that nonsense. Wouldn't you rather they spent that time teaching the children?

strange how children in other countries without these weird uniform rules manage not to be psychologically scarred by wearing their own clothes at school

School uniforms are really really common globally

@NoIDontWatchLoveIsland

But it doesn't work like that when the rules you are enforcing are stupid

Plenty of people don't think uniform rules are stupid. Millions upon millions of adult jobs have uniforms or clothing rules - offices, retail, cafes, armed forces, emergency services, medical, fitness/gyms. Much of what childhood is all about is preparation for adulthood. In the past children didnt spend every minute of their time playing, they would have been with adults learning important skills & social rules in preparation for adulthood. This is the modern day equivalent.

Of course uniforms in some jobs are necessary and appropriate. Why does that mean they are necessary in schools? How come people in uniformed occupations all over Europe manage absolutely fine despite having gone through their entire school careers without wearing uniforms?

@NoIDontWatchLoveIsland

strange how children in other countries without these weird uniform rules manage not to be psychologically scarred by wearing their own clothes at school

School uniforms are really really common globally

They aren't, in fact. And that answer still doesn't explain all the successful products of non-uniform schools.

The skirt rules annoy me. We have one supplier for logoed skirts. She is insanely strict about not selling shorter length skirts to children who are deemed too tall. They're special order items so you can't just pick them up off the shelf, and she insists on seeing the child. I went to take my 11 year old for uniform, to be told she's too tall for the shorter skirt (she's around 5ft), so we duly left with the longer skirt which sits below her knees. So why can I see the arse crack on every girl that walks past me?! I know they roll them up, but to roll them that far should be bloody obvious and the school should implement their own rules.

Jemand
School uniform is mandatory in loads of countries including India, Indonesia, Japan, south Africa, plus v common in china, Brazil etc. There are loads more but those are some pretty high population countries.

Huge huge swathes of the worlds children wear school uniform.

In fact jemand mainland Europe & the us are kind of more the exceptions, uniforms are v common most other countries.

Jemand

Also.... lots of children like uniforms.

If parents and children didnt, on the whole, like them, do you really think they would persist so much?

My kids love uniform. In RL I find few children & parents who don't like uniform and wear it happily.

If anything it makes the non-compliant kids stand out more. You've got neatly dressed children in uniform and then a kid or two in scruffy tracksuit bottoms in marl-grey, a dirty pair of trainers and some random sweatshirt in the wrong colour. The rules should be enforced so everyone looks the same, which is the point.

Our school gives away uniform for free, so there's no excuse - it's just a refusal to follow simple rules to denote how 'individual' you and your children are.

"The rules should be enforced so everyone looks the same, which is the point."

Because everyone isn't the same and insisting on certain articles of clothing that cause severe discomfort or distress in some people isn't meeting need.

MatildaIThink

I find it surprising how most of the children at my children's school whose parents claim that they cannot afford uniform etc. send their children in wearing £100+ trainers, with a £50+ backpack, the children have multiple other branded items etc. The families that cannot afford to buy new uniform almost always use the schools uniform swap shop which for the items with logos on only costs a pound an item if they show they are on various benefits and the only items school branded are a jumper and cap.
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Jemand:
Charmless piece of benefit-bashing there.
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How is it "benefit-bashing" to point out that those on benefits are not those complaining that they cannot afford the uniform? Indeed those on benefits get reduced/subsidised uniform. It is people who are not reliant on benefits, but claim that they cannot "afford" uniform, despite being able to spend hundreds of pounds every few months on Nike/Adidas/etc. branded clothing who are the issue.

@NoIDontWatchLoveIsland, you still haven't answered the point I made, namely that the justifications put forward (having something to rebel about, feeling freer when they all look alike) never hold water when looking at all the successful products of non-uniform schools.

As for the claim that children love uniform, sorry, no.

I work with children who've been excluded from school. Uniform is a ridiculously common reason.

Often it happens because children who aren't in uniform through no fault of their own have been humiliated for it.

E.g. Jonny lives in a chaotic home. The children are fed and they're cleanish, mostly because he does the washing and shopping. They have a social worker but it's very light touch because the family get by.

This week his younger brother ruined his last school shirt so Jonny has given him his and hasn't managed to get more laundry done.

He's arrived at school, upset, worried, sad, with genuinely the weight of the world on his shoulders, but he's there and really wants to do his best, but his focus isn't always there. He's known for being a bit disruptive and having a temper when provoked.

The first contact he has with a member of staff is "Jonny, what are you wearing?" shouted down the corridor. Jonny's response? "Fuck off sir" and who can blame him?

So no, I don't think uniform should be rigorously enforced for everyone without considering personal circumstances.

It sounds like quite a light touch policy (eg no logos) with light enforcement. It sounds ideal to me.

I don’t hate plain uniforms but would definitely get rid of blazers.

Jemand

Of course there will be people for whom uniform free school experience will be good.

But that doesnt mean a uniform always has to be a bad thing. Honestly lots of children genuinely do like it, they love to match their friends, emulate older children whom they admire, and feel "part of a team", recognisable and included.

We had the great long list of what "branded" items the Junior Engineer has to have for school at the beginning of the summer term, inc. "branded" PE socks.
We've gone to a lot of trouble and expense finding this crap - mostly off the FB second hand page where EVERYBODY moans about the cost of the stuff! - because he's just going into Yr 7 and I was "that kid" at school, the one in the dirty uniform or the wrong shoes or the grey old-lady coat that my dad bought off a shoplifter in a pub, and I'm buggered if my son will put up with the kind of malevolent shite I did from other children.

His outgrown primary school uniform was bought at the beginning of lockdown and the jumpers got worn about six times, so they've been given back to the school to reissue as they see fit.

What worried me most of all was the idea of the "branded" hoodie which is the only kind of hoodie you can wear on school premises so that the Premises staff can easily identify any intruders. (Their words not mine!) WTAF?!!!

@Jemand I'm not saying all uniform policies are right, and I don't agree with expensive logos on all items, but basic uniform of correct coloured trouser/skirts, white shirt, correct coloured jumper and black shoes isn't hard to do. Schools shouldn't be draconian and as long as all pupils have clean, smart uniform there is leeway in having expensive logoed stuff. My children's school is happy for you to wear a plain blue jumper and that's fine. But I'm not happy that they say black trousers etc, and half the school wear grey. Black is sold ina ok the local supermarkets/shops.

What worried me most of all was the idea of the "branded" hoodie which is the only kind of hoodie you can wear on school premises so that the Premises staff can easily identify any intruders. (Their words not mine!) WTAF?!!!

Well that doesn't always work. We had a situation here where an excluded pupil decoded he decided to go back to school. Picked another local school, turned up at the other school, in uniform who knows where he got it, but it won't be good and attended lessons for three days. No one seemed to notice

In some ways you have to admire their ingenuity

@LegendaryReady

What worried me most of all was the idea of the "branded" hoodie which is the only kind of hoodie you can wear on school premises so that the Premises staff can easily identify any intruders. (Their words not mine!) WTAF?!!!

Well that doesn't always work. We had a situation here where an excluded pupil decoded he decided to go back to school. Picked another local school, turned up at the other school, in uniform who knows where he got it, but it won't be good and attended lessons for three days. No one seemed to notice

In some ways you have to admire their ingenuity

Can't really knock them for wanting to go back to school 😆

@Jemand

It annoys me too. I think it makes the school look scruffy when children are turning up in the wrong uniform

I'm far more concerned with the results a school get and whether it turns out decent citizens than whether the children have slightly different uniform from each other. But the real answer of course is to abolish uniforms altogether.

Look we all know that in the vast majority of cases, the school with shit discipline, unenforced rules and parents who don’t give a crap are not exactly producing great results. They’re typically sink schools where children come from deprived backgrounds, but the entire education they get just reinforces that with low expectations, low results and no chance of getting anywhere in life.

It’s why you have schools like Michaela, with educators who say actually children from deprived backgrounds CAN get top results with a bit of discipline and parental buy-in. The kids they take would have no future in sink schools but see a whole world of opportunity opened to them.

Schools will never win.

Some parents think uniform is vitally important whereas others don’t want it at all.

Schools are, however, package deals. They are not a la carte.

Of course it is reasonable to complain if you feel that you have been treated unfairly or you think a school has failed to follow its own policy. However, ultimately, only the school sees the whole picture of the needs of individual children. And, ultimately, if you and the school are totally opposed, it is time to move schools.