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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

Am I a Karen?

375 replies

Magnoliamarigold · 31/08/2021 12:14

Currently in a debate with a 19 year old nephew about transgender issues.

I believe gender is a social construct. But:

I don't believe in puberty blockers for 10 year olds.
I'm currently on my third IVF cycle and for this reason I'm not convinced young people (over 18) should take hormone replacement therapy.

Been reliably informed this makes me a Karen. AIBU?

OP posts:
NotDavidTennant · 31/08/2021 15:32

Equally, asking people to understand that sometimes BAME people need to use the word isn't silencing them.

You're arguing there against something non-one has said. People are asking you to consider that Karen was originally coined as a misogynist insult and is still understood by many women to be a misogynist insult and therefore you might want to consider replacing it with a different term.

I suspect if the situation were reversed and there was a term used to call out misogyny that was originally rooted in racism you'd understand perfectly why people would ask for the term not be used anymore.

LizzieW1969 · 31/08/2021 15:36

@NotDavidTennant

Exactly. Plus the fact that it’s clear that it is something that causes offence to women who are actually called Karen. That should be enough of a reason to stop using the term.

TheKeatingFive · 31/08/2021 15:37

Because the victim of racist abuse is confronting a racist and they are free to choose the term they use to do that.

They’re free to use it, of course.

That doesn’t mean it isn’t a prejudiced and nasty term.

Meraas · 31/08/2021 15:41

@NotDavidTennant

Equally, asking people to understand that sometimes BAME people need to use the word isn't silencing them.

You're arguing there against something non-one has said. People are asking you to consider that Karen was originally coined as a misogynist insult and is still understood by many women to be a misogynist insult and therefore you might want to consider replacing it with a different term.

I suspect if the situation were reversed and there was a term used to call out misogyny that was originally rooted in racism you'd understand perfectly why people would ask for the term not be used anymore.

No one has said it? That not true. See examples below from upthread:

"Call a racist a racist. It’s pretty simple."

"Call a racist a racist and be done with it."

I suspect if the situation were reversed and there was a term used to call out misogyny that was originally rooted in racism you'd understand perfectly why people would ask for the term not be used anymore.

There are terms, you just don't care about them because they don't affect you.

Shirleyphallus · 31/08/2021 15:42

You really don’t get to replace one prejudicial slur with another just because you’re on the receiving end of abuse.

Would it be ok for victims of rape to use racial slurs, just because they experienced a crime at the hands of one person from that sub group? Of course it wouldn’t. It just isn’t ok to say “well I experienced abuse or prejudice so I’ll use this incredibly offensive term and no one can tell me otherwise”

Meraas · 31/08/2021 15:43

@TheKeatingFive

Because the victim of racist abuse is confronting a racist and they are free to choose the term they use to do that.

They’re free to use it, of course.

That doesn’t mean it isn’t a prejudiced and nasty term.

And yet when I said they should be free to us them, you responded upthread with 'Erm, no'.
Meraas · 31/08/2021 15:44

@Shirleyphallus

You really don’t get to replace one prejudicial slur with another just because you’re on the receiving end of abuse.

Would it be ok for victims of rape to use racial slurs, just because they experienced a crime at the hands of one person from that sub group? Of course it wouldn’t. It just isn’t ok to say “well I experienced abuse or prejudice so I’ll use this incredibly offensive term and no one can tell me otherwise”

What the victim of rape says to her rapist is up to her, I would not presume to dictate to her.
TheKeatingFive · 31/08/2021 15:47

And yet when I said they should be free to us them, you responded upthread with 'Erm, no'.

You’re messing about with technicalities here to be ‘right’. It’s tedious.

Let’s cut to the chase. Obviously they can use the term. They’re not going to be arrested. The question is, is it morally/socially acceptable to use it? That’s where my ‘erm no’ comes in.

Meraas · 31/08/2021 15:51

Maybe if you acknowledged the post I am responding to it would be less tedious?

For example, my response 'Because the victim of racist abuse is confronting a racist and they are free to choose the term they use to do that' was in the response to the question I was asked below in italics.

My point is I'm not posting in a vacuum, simply responding to questions, so if it's tedious, blame it on the questions I'm being asked.

Why is it ok to use a term that suggests racism is more problematic/prevalent among middle age women?

TheKeatingFive · 31/08/2021 15:53

Maybe if you acknowledged the post I am responding to it would be less tedious?

I doubt it.

I’m pretty sure you’re capable of understanding the difference between terms being illegal and terms being morally and socially unacceptable.

Are you?

Meraas · 31/08/2021 16:04

Well, ask tedious questions and you will get tedious answers.

And as for legality vs morality, would know the answer to that if you had read my responses above, including the position re law.

HereForThis · 31/08/2021 16:07

Oh please, OP. You know good and well this is just 'one of the kids' misusing a word they think is cool and edgy. All this thread will do is to get posters frothing about 'Karen', not that you really think you're one. Confused

PrincessNutella · 31/08/2021 16:08

Does he think children should be allowed to have hooves sewn on their legs if they think they are ponies? If not, why not? Can they have wings sutured onto their backs if they think they are ostriches? Who has the right to question a ten-year-old's identity?

HereForThis · 31/08/2021 16:08

That was meant to be Hmm

Shirleyphallus · 31/08/2021 16:09

What the victim of rape says to her rapist is up to her, I would not presume to dictate to her.

I think if someone used an incredibly offensive racist term you’d have an issue with it, irrespective of what’s happened to make them use that word

Meraas · 31/08/2021 16:11

@shirlleyphallus The issue here is you only have to ‘think’ it, am the one who has to experience it.

But I still wouldn’t presume to dictate to a rape victim.

HereForThis · 31/08/2021 16:12

@Letsallscreamatthesistene

Eye roll at this needlessly provokative thread
Exactly. Voted YABU just for the stealth buzzword, froth-inducing thread.

Oh am I a Karen? I'm not sure...am I? Waiting for the klaxon to go off.

No you're not and you know it. If you're taking what he said seriously, then you may have a bigger problem though.

Shirleyphallus · 31/08/2021 16:13

[quote Meraas]@shirlleyphallus The issue here is you only have to ‘think’ it, am the one who has to experience it.

But I still wouldn’t presume to dictate to a rape victim.[/quote]
How on earth do you know anything about me whatsoever? You don’t. You have absolutely no idea of my experience but I’m not shallow enough to allow terms of abuse or slurs stand because someone has got other issues to deal with.

NotDavidTennant · 31/08/2021 16:15

There are terms, you just don't care about them because they don't affect you.

Well, no I can't immeadiately bring any to mind because they don't affect me. That doesn't mean I don't care about them.

So do you think people should be able to use those racist terms then? That would seem to be the logical consequence of your position.

Meraas · 31/08/2021 16:17

@Shirleyphallus

I think it's more shallow to dismiss someone who has just told you they experience racism. There has been zero sympathy for victims of racism on this thread.

Meraas · 31/08/2021 16:19

@NotDavidTennant

There are terms, you just don't care about them because they don't affect you.

Well, no I can't immeadiately bring any to mind because they don't affect me. That doesn't mean I don't care about them.

So do you think people should be able to use those racist terms then? That would seem to be the logical consequence of your position.

If they're not illegal, then it's for that individual to decide the morality.
DrSbaitso · 31/08/2021 17:03

Well if the fact that it's misogynistic and is nothing more than the current incarnation of "shrew", "harridan", "scold" and "nag" isn't enough to stop you, how about the fact that it's just a lazy insult that's only ever used by people who can't be arsed to think, as shit as "your mum"?

grey12 · 31/08/2021 17:07

That does definitely not make you a "karen"

DrSbaitso · 31/08/2021 17:24

@grey12

That does definitely not make you a "karen"
Of course it does. A Karen is just a woman who says something you don't like, and whom you wish to shut down with the ancient "mouthy obstreperous woman" stereotype. It's the go to misogynistic insult for thick people, now that "your mum" is a bit dated.
grey12 · 31/08/2021 17:51

It is misogynistic but that's not what it means. It means behaving incredibly entitled, *sshole-ish and antisocial, which is not the case here