Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Original poster

Am I a Karen?

375 replies

Magnoliamarigold · 31/08/2021 12:14

Currently in a debate with a 19 year old nephew about transgender issues.

I believe gender is a social construct. But:

I don't believe in puberty blockers for 10 year olds.
I'm currently on my third IVF cycle and for this reason I'm not convinced young people (over 18) should take hormone replacement therapy.

Been reliably informed this makes me a Karen. AIBU?

OP posts:
Bloodypunkrockers · 31/08/2021 14:50

[quote Crabbitcrab]@Meraas it empowers black and Asian women? Oh well that's absolutely fine then. Nevermind all the women named Karen who get the piss taken out them and have had their name hijacked. As long as it's empowering someone it doesn't matter that it causes problems for thousands of others eh?
Racists are just called racists there's no need to use the name Karen.[/quote]
I've mainly seen it used by young men. I neither know nor care what colour they are

And it's aimed at middle aged women with an opinion

Shirleyphallus · 31/08/2021 14:50

How are they not involved if they are displaying racist behaviour? That is what literally makes no sense

Not every person called Karen is racist? Not every white woman is racist?

Meraas · 31/08/2021 14:50

@TheKeatingFive

How are they not involved if they are displaying racist behaviour?

I refer you to the OP

My first comment on the thread was telling the OP she is not a Karen.
TheKeatingFive · 31/08/2021 14:51

You're saying a word is forbidden, you don't get to make that call.

Your interpretation of the word is your own.

What if someone said that about a racist slur?

I’m sure your tune would be radically different.

And how can Karen be interpreted as anything different to emblematic of a middle aged woman?

Meraas · 31/08/2021 14:51

@Shirleyphallus

How are they not involved if they are displaying racist behaviour? That is what literally makes no sense

Not every person called Karen is racist? Not every white woman is racist?

But the person displaying racist abuse is a racist, and therefore subject to the term.
Ereshkigalangcleg · 31/08/2021 14:52

It should be pretty simple to understand that you should not dictate to victims of racism on how they respond to the racist.

Not "dictating to victims of racism", just pointing out how the term is a misogynistic slur, if people use misogynistic slurs, that's up to them, but people have every right to challenge it.

Meraas · 31/08/2021 14:52

@TheKeatingFive

You're saying a word is forbidden, you don't get to make that call.

Your interpretation of the word is your own.

What if someone said that about a racist slur?

I’m sure your tune would be radically different.

And how can Karen be interpreted as anything different to emblematic of a middle aged woman?

But I don't get to decide which words are forbidden, the law does.
Meraas · 31/08/2021 14:53

@Ereshkigalangcleg

It should be pretty simple to understand that you should not dictate to victims of racism on how they respond to the racist.

Not "dictating to victims of racism", just pointing out how the term is a misogynistic slur, if people use misogynistic slurs, that's up to them, but people have every right to challenge it.

They are of course free to challenge it.
Ereshkigalangcleg · 31/08/2021 14:54

But the person displaying racist abuse is a racist, and therefore subject to the term.

This thread isn't actually about racism, so the term is being used in its wider, more common in the U.K. usage. The term Karen is not a term which was coined about racism. It's one use of it. Plenty of the time it is applied indiscriminately to older women the speaker doesn't agree with. I've seen it used by men about both black and Asian women.

VestaTilley · 31/08/2021 14:55

YANBU. You’re correct.

You can talk your 19 year old nephew that “Karen”, like “terf” is a misogynistic slur, used as an excuse to bully women.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 31/08/2021 14:55

They are of course free to challenge it.

Yes. As is happening here.

Meraas · 31/08/2021 14:57

@Ereshkigalangcleg I told OP she wasn't a Karen, I was asked what Karen means.

The issue here is men, not victims of racism speaking out.

Meraas · 31/08/2021 14:57

@Ereshkigalangcleg

They are of course free to challenge it.

Yes. As is happening here.

Which is fine.
Ereshkigalangcleg · 31/08/2021 15:00

I don't see the term Karen as an anti racist term, because that's not how it originated or how it's generally used in the U.K. I think it's a handy way of further silencing women though, to suggest that they can't even object to its use.

Meraas · 31/08/2021 15:04

I think it can be an anti-racist term and I think telling BAME people they can't use it is silencing them.

NotJuryDutyAgain · 31/08/2021 15:04

I hate the term "Karen", but even so... The things addressed in the OP have nothing to do with what I've been led to believe is "Karenism". So... Really, none of this makes sense. I'd tell the 19-year-old that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, even if it's an unpopular one.

NotJuryDutyAgain · 31/08/2021 15:06

I still think it's incredibly scummy behaviour to use a person's name as an insult. I don't really give a crap about the "worthiness" of the cause behind its use. Don't really care who happens to be using the name as an insult, either, including their age, sex, skin colour, or ethnicity. It's still scummy behaviour, imo.

TheKeatingFive · 31/08/2021 15:07

I think it can be an anti-racist term and I think telling BAME people they can't use it is silencing them.

Why is it ok to use a term that suggests racism is more problematic/prevalent among middle age women?

MrsRobbieHart · 31/08/2021 15:08

@Meraas

But why are you explaining it to me, MrsR? I didn't ask you to explain anything.
Because you were labouring under the misapprehension that I thought it was your job to educate me. I was providing the information you needed to correctly understand that I don’t.
Meraas · 31/08/2021 15:13

Because you were labouring under the misapprehension that I thought it was your job to educate me. I was providing the information you needed to correctly understand that I don’t.

Hope this is edifying: If you tell someone 'it stands to reason that you would be the obvious first port of call in my journey to understanding your choice of language' they will think you think it's their job to educate you.

Meraas · 31/08/2021 15:14

@TheKeatingFive

I think it can be an anti-racist term and I think telling BAME people they can't use it is silencing them.

Why is it ok to use a term that suggests racism is more problematic/prevalent among middle age women?

Because the victim of racist abuse is confronting a racist and they are free to choose the term they use to do that.
NotDavidTennant · 31/08/2021 15:21

I think it can be an anti-racist term and I think telling BAME people they can't use it is silencing them.

Asking people not to use one specific term is not "silencing" them. Don't be so dramatic.

Meraas · 31/08/2021 15:25

@NotDavidTennant

I think it can be an anti-racist term and I think telling BAME people they can't use it is silencing them.

Asking people not to use one specific term is not "silencing" them. Don't be so dramatic.

Equally, asking people to understand that sometimes BAME people need to use the word isn't silencing them.
MrsRobbieHart · 31/08/2021 15:26

Hope this is edifying: If you tell someone 'it stands to reason that you would be the obvious first port of call in my journey to understanding your choice of language' they will think you think it's their job to educate you.

No, that’s just how you chose to represent my comment to deflect from having to explain your own.

It’s clear we will go in circles here so I won’t continue on with this derail.

Meraas · 31/08/2021 15:31

That's your actual comment, MrsR, I haven't represented it. I already explained and you acknowledged that I had, not sure what else you need.

But yes, let's leave your derail.