'Are dads invited too?'

[SyIviescup]

So the class watsap is starting to wake up. The majority are women but there a few dads floating about in it. That don't really contribute to the group at all.

There are a few of us who are friendly - not besties but enjoy going for lunch before pick up (if we can) or evening drinks/ meal out (term time as we all seem to disappear during the long summer holidays)

If we organise a play date outing such as at a play area/park ect its an open invite everyone is invited mums & dads, siblings- anyone.

But if a few of us fancy having a 'mums' night out, we have to extend it to the rest of the mums on the group, so they don't feel left out then the same two women ask if 'the dads can come too?'

Which changes the dynamics of the group. I've nothing against either blokes, they are nice, I chat to them at school but its just not the same. The last time they came, we/I was told that more male friendly/fun stuff should be organised like a night out go carting. I did say to him that he was welcome to organise that but it never came to fruition.

Im not the class rep, its not down to me to organise events that men would like, I don't know why they organise fuck all then expect to come out and sit with 10 women and then moan that they could be doing something more 'fun'.

Message this morning -

Person A - Hi every one hope you all had a great summer, a few of us are thinking about have a mums meal and drinks night out for a catch up on the xxxx, if you fancy it let me know so I can book table.

Person B - I'd love too, can dads come too.

All "not fair whine whine" and telling women that we can't expect men to be involved in childcare unless they are included in every tiny social event, that we should organise everything with men in mind and the false equivalence arguments is just pure bullshit and whataboutery at the level I've come to expect from men's rights apologists

Excluding two people from a group of 22 people (who are presumably mostly little more than strangers to one another anyway) isn’t very nice. It’s no more complex than that.

@Justilou1

I’d reply “Sure but as it’s mostly ladies, we have no intention of “changing it to a more male-friendly venue” like go-karting.” We plan on eating and drinking wine. Thanks!

I'm all honestly I think I'd enjoy go karting more than sitting around watching women I barely know get pissed I've never understood the whole "mums' night out" thing anyway, girls' night is something I do with friends. But if you want to do it, and don't want to invite dads, you need a separate group for the people who want to. It's very rude to put out an invite and actively exclude certain people. Would you do it if you were standing in a room with them all? I doubt it.

@Blueleah

Why do you object so much to a girls night out? Do you think women need to be accompanied by men at all times? Don’t be ridiculous. The problem here is that 22 people are in the group and 2 of those people are being excluded from an event. The reason for excluding them is irrelevant - it’s rude. And also sex discrimination is illegal and I’m shocked that people are trying to justify it.

22 people and two have been excluded?

Where have you got that from as it isn't from me?

People are now actually making up their own imaginary watsap group to froth about

And now its illegal to organise a woman only event - bloody hell some one needs to tell the WI

Some of the replies on this thread are just bonkers,

@supermoonrising

All "not fair whine whine" and telling women that we can't expect men to be involved in childcare unless they are included in every tiny social event, that we should organise everything with men in mind and the false equivalence arguments is just pure bullshit and whataboutery at the level I've come to expect from men's rights apologists

Excluding two people from a group of 22 people (who are presumably mostly little more than strangers to one another anyway) isn’t very nice. It’s no more complex than that.

Again who said there was 22 people

Fucking bonkers

@lasagnecheese

I can't believe how many people are offended...

It's not that deep. In both classes my kids are in there are smaller what's app groups set up all the time for different nights out etc. Not all the mums get on, plus trying to book tables for 30 people is impossible, not to mention the fact that people always try and add on more last minute/change venue/ moan which is really frustrating.

Whoever that dad was that moaned about it being boring last night should have been told to shove the cocktail menu where the sun don't shine IMO.

You can't please everyone.

I think a MASSIVE point that has been missed by loads of posters is that it seems that women were asking if their husbands could come, rather than single dads? @SyIviescup is that right? If so it very much changes the feel of the whole evening as some are couples, others aren't and you need ALOT more organisation for 60 people if 30 couples came!

Nothing wrong in saying it's a ladies night, if a single dad wants to come, let him, but I don't know many single dads that would want to go out with a group of mums. People really need to stop being so offended! Mums or dads nights go on the whole time, the conversations are completely different than when it's couples. It's as simple as that. We really don't need to get into discussions about gender discrimination do we???

Go kart dad can go sit on his own and make bruuum noises in the corner

Yes its women wanting to bring their husbands.

There are three males on the group. One has never commented, I do not know if they are in a couple as neither he or the mother engage on the thread. The two that do come out are married to the mums but the men rarely if ever engage on the thread.

@vivainsomnia

Two men that weren't interested enough to ask if they could attend themselves...... Why should they ask when the message is clear they are not wanted. It wasn't an error, OP said she didn't want them there.

So should the asked to be told 'well yes, I suppose you can come' which means 'I'd rather you didn't but can't say so, but hopefully you'll get the message you should have gone first time', or clear 'no you can't, isn't girlie clear enough'. Neither is pleasant to hear, so why would they put themselves in a situation to be feel insulted?

No, they shouldn't have to ask of course, they shouldn't have to involved in the arranging, they should also not be expected to arrange anything they would like to do either.

They women should sort it all out for them instead

I see the OP doesn't actually care if she has been unreasonable (which she has).

@Suspicioussam

And your point? Most people when they have been clearly excluded wouldn't say 'can I come?' someone else obviously piped up as they knew it was wrong, good on her!

Honestly are men really that arsed about not being invited to a mums night out?

This isn't a few women being excluded and left out of a wider group, this is a the whole group of women being invited on a mums night out.

Two dads have commented on this thread saying it wouldn't bother them in the slightest. It seems its the some of the women on here are getting upset for their husbands who might hypothetically not be invited out on a mums night out.

Honestly you know a man that would sit there upset because he wasn't invited out with a bunch of women?

I'd actually laugh if dh did this.

@kirinm

I see the OP doesn't actually care if she has been unreasonable (which she has).

YOU think I've been reasonable. The majority of the votes don't think I have.

Viva la mums nights out!

"Sorry, ladies only." and don't engage further.

I get very confused about what is considered hidden sexism but the first thing that I thought was that no one should be excluded based on their sex etc?

Isn't this it?

As a pp poster pointed out I would be very pissed off if I was excluded from any activity considered to be male or female.

Having said all that a "mum's night out" would be my idea of hell.

Can’t stand the sniffiness about women being friends with other mums at school (“why would you want to make friends with people just because your kids go to the same school?”). I’ve made some really brilliant friendships with ‘school mums’. No shame in that. It’s that whole too-cool-for-school (literally) vibe. It’s so fucking old and boring.

@GrandDuchessRomanov

I get very confused about what is considered hidden sexism but the first thing that I thought was that no one should be excluded based on their sex etc?

Isn't this it?

As a pp poster pointed out I would be very pissed off if I was excluded from any activity considered to be male or female.

Having said all that a "mum's night out" would be my idea of hell.

No. It’s not as simple as that because it ignores the context, history and power imbalance of one group. It’s not as simple as ‘equality means everyone being treated exactly the same’.

@gumball37

I am a single mom. Everyone around me when my oldest was little was married. I joined a group called "mother's and more" because I wanted time with other moms and kids, instead of constant "odd man out" feeling. Well the world came crashing down when a woman asked of "husband's could come too" to an event and I said "I'd actually prefer not as I joined this group to have fun times with just mom's and kids". Apparently that's just rude. It upset her so much that they pretty much outed me from the group. I don't join groups anymore. It kinda messed everything up for me in regards to making mom friends and such.

According to some of the suggestions on here you should have set up a new group just for the moms (even though they were the ones that had decided to exclude you in the first place).

@SyIviescup
It’s not about whether people are upset. It’s about that the
group, which was nominally a Class XY WhatsApp, has basically been rebranded as a “mums of Class XY organise stuff to which dads are sometimes not invited” Group. If I were a man I wouldn’t be upset, but I would turn off notifications/leave the group as it’s clearly not what I expected it to be. Probably some women would be putting up photos of their girls night out and then engaging in female centred humour. As a male, I’d worry my presence in the group would be “changing the dynamic” to borrow your term, so I’d be leaving you to it! So yeah enjoy the group however you want, but if certain people are getting excluded from certain activities, the group name should reflect that.

@ChangeNameTiredAF

Can’t stand the sniffiness about women being friends with other mums at school (“why would you want to make friends with people just because your kids go to the same school?”). I’ve made some really brilliant friendships with ‘school mums’. No shame in that. It’s that whole too-cool-for-school (literally) vibe. It’s so fucking old and boring.

There are, unfortunately, a lot of people who think that women are generally just a bit rubbish and not really like real people.

@CalishataFolkart
Not only make new group, also exclude the mums you have less interaction with so that the poor men don’t feel so left out.

It’d be laughable if it wasn’t so tragic!

The OP didn't want to invite all the mums in the group either, this is such a weird thread - just DM who you want to come along and have your night out, I don't see what so complicated.
🤷‍♀️

[quote supermoonrising]@SyIviescup
It’s not about whether people are upset. It’s about that the
group, which was nominally a Class XY WhatsApp, has basically been rebranded as a “mums of Class XY organise stuff to which dads are sometimes not invited” Group. If I were a man I wouldn’t be upset, but I would turn off notifications/leave the group as it’s clearly not what I expected it to be. Probably some women would be putting up photos of their girls night out and then engaging in female centred humour. As a male, I’d worry my presence in the group would be “changing the dynamic” to borrow your term, so I’d be leaving you to it! So yeah enjoy the group however you want, but if certain people are getting excluded from certain activities, the group name should reflect that.[/quote]
No it really hasn't been branded as a 'mums of class xx'

Its just one night.

There is a bonfire night one on the horizon and most likely a Christmas one. Every one and their nan can come to those.

@Journeyofthedragons

The OP didn't want to invite all the mums in the group either, this is such a weird thread - just DM who you want to come along and have your night out, I don't see what so complicated. 🤷‍♀️

Erm, yes she did. She wanted it to be open to all the mums.

@AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken

From the original post

But if a few of us fancy having a 'mums' night out, we have to extend it to the rest of the mums on the group so they don't feel left out

Doesn’t sound as if they really wanted them there though, they weren’t really top of the invite list

If you aren’t inviting everyone in the group then you don’t announce the outing in the group!! You set up another group chat with just the people you want to invite

This DH is (or was in the primary years) equally involved as me. I have girl's nights out with my female friends, I expect class parent's events to be open to everyone.

I was invited to a "Mum's night" when Ds was in year 7, I didn't ask " are Dads allowed to come too?". I just didn't go, such sexist attitudes belong in the '50's.

@DontDrinkDontSmokeWhatDoIDo

Do you mean that some people come as couples, OP?

Because that does change the dynamic.

As a school group, i would have no issue if mums, dads or carers of any type came along as individuals.

I wouldn't really enjoy it if some can along as partners though - I'd find that odd.

But presumably the 'partners' are highly likely to also be the other parent or have a parental role and so it's not like your mate's new boyfriend tagging along.

[quote AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken]@CalishataFolkart
Not only make new group, also exclude the mums you have less interaction with so that the poor men don’t feel so left out.

It’d be laughable if it wasn’t so tragic![/quote]
Ah, you misunderstand I think. I was referring to all the advice from last night as to what the men should do if they are excluded i.e. start a new group. No matter how many times the question, “But with WHOM should they start it?” was asked the answer was always, “Just start a new group.” The single mom PP who talked about being ousted from a group would presumably have been given the same advice despite there being no one relevant to start a new group with.