Why is UK so child unfriendly?

[bezabez]

Hi! I am foreign person living in the UK for the past 15 years.

I have noticed that the attitudes towards children are really strange in this country. Generally kids aren't accepted to be kids. They are expected to be quiet (ish) if out and about eg in a restaurant or a cafe, women don't breastfeed often in public (UK has the lowest rate of breastfeeding in the world) and they are expected 'to do as you're told' - that's a weird expression in itself tbh and to behave and never show a wild side. If on a train or other public spaces people tend not to engage with them even with babies (where I'm from there would be talking and smiling and general admirations) or tthey make faces, huffing and puffing etc if the children 'misbehave'.

Also parents complain A LOT about having children, sometimes as a form of a banter as these are socially acceptable jokes. Especially during the holidays.

On top of that there aren't many affordable childcare options or things like holiday camps and clubs (I know they exist in bigger cities sometimes but it isn't the same).

Overall it's no place for young people!

Does it come from the Victorian 'kids are to be seen not heard' thing?

Again where I'm from kids are celebrated as the future here they are mostly treated as inconvenience.

@GintyMcGinty

I don't feel where I live in the UK is not child friendly.

Loads of places to go.
Loads of public events for families with children.
Cafes and restaurants galore
I breastfed everywhere and anywhere and never had a problem

I had no problem with childcare although it was eye watering expensive

Breastfeeding rates are appalling but that is due to lack of support rather than no where to feed.

Agree with this! I breastfed mine two until they were 2.5. I fed them in public and apart from one single occasion (two older ladies whispering and scowling at me in an IKEA cafe!) I didn’t get any negative looks/comments.

Childcare is definitely hideously expensive. My youngest has finished nursery this week and I’m so pleased we don’t have those fees to pay now,

I think it’s partially because many parents in the U.K. raise their kids with no rules or boundaries, so a lot of children are disrespectful to adults (eg interrupting conversations, shouting to get what they want, not respecting elders etc).

In countries where children are brought up in large multi generational families there seem to be more rules and cultural expectations, eg grandparents/aunts/uncles help to enforce boundaries. Children are taught from a young age when it’s appropriate to run around shouting and playing wildly and when they need to sit quietly, and there are consequences for getting it wrong eg acting out at a social event.

Obviously many U.K. parents do this too. But many don’t.

@CeeceeBloomingdale

I take my children to wild open beaches or countryside to run free, they are expected to sit through a meal in a restaurant. I breast fed in public and in over 4 years of it cumulatively no one ever said anything or even looked disapproving . The UK has people living on the whole quite close to each other so I teach them to be respectful and quiet when it might disturb other people. I live in the north and completely disagree about people not engaging with children, it's very normal here but there is definitely a north south divide.

I agree with this. When my children were young I gave them plenty of time and opportunity to run, play, shout, be wild. But when we went out to a restaurant, they were reminded when we went in, that other people were in there for a nice quiet meal, and wouldn't want to be disturbed. They were happy to sit and eat, and to talk. When I was childminding and fostering, and we went to a cafe, the children knew that was my coffee break, so we had a routine where they would happily sit with a drink and a biscuit and look at books and chat, whilst I looked at a magazine. People often engaged with them and me, because everyone loves a well behaved child. When we went to the park they could run wild and make noise.

I think it is generational issue.
After a certain age there should be a no child zone housing area for those who want it.
It isn't only the UK.
I grew up around here.
I know parents who raised 8/9 feral DC in their time who have a fit if a ball rolls past the garden these days or the DC laugh loudly or play chasing on the street.
It is so rude of them, ageism towards DC.
I'd love child free housing estates send the curtain twitches there.
Most long-time residents are moans some love DC chat with them.
The estate has been build up from 100 homes to hundreds plus apartment blocks.
Ireland needs retirement estates.
So we can all be happier.
PS I bring my DS off 7 hours a day so he doesn't disturb the neighbours.
I'm conditioned to care for some reason.

DH and I have a holiday home in France and it is child friendlier than back home BUT French children ARE better behaved and quieter than British kids so are more easily tolerated!

@fizbosshoes

The only thing I would say is that on the rare occassion I took my kids on public transport when they were very young and in a pushchair or pram, almost no one ever offered to help. (I know they are my own children and my responsibility) I was even talking on the platform with a man I knew from the same church while we waited for the train, and as soon as the train came he said "nice talking to you " and walked up the other end to get on leaving me to get the baby in the pram onto the train by myself!

Now I am really conscious of it and if i see a parent on their own with children i always offer to help.

I dont really understand this. Walk to train, tilt pram up a few inches, push onto train. What help would you need?

@Hardbackwriter I suppose if the younger children are used to a routine with bedtime at 7 they will be tired and play up in the the evening. But it also depends on the dynamic of the group are the adults engaged with the children or are they left to their own devices and messing around.

I’ve always been quite flexible with DD5 bedtime and routine. Now as a single parent, we spend quite a lot of time with the grandparents and other older members of extended family so she is used to mixing with adults and attending not child-focused places. I don’t have any problems with taking her to restaurants in the evenings. We were in a hostel on holiday and we’d be in the bar until 9. I wouldn’t tolerate bad behaviour or getting under people’s feet though.

I think this might be specifically a London thing. Ps I'm a teacher, and never once have I heard a teacher complain that parents in the UK are too strict, and expect unrealistically good behaviour 🤣🤣

I also breastfed mine walking down the street in a baby carrier (boob over top method so not discreet) but never had a negative comment. Most people didn’t even notice baby was feeding until they came over to admire baby (and backed off embarrassed). I used to get on and off buses with baby attached to boob, in and out of coffee shops etc, a carrier means you’re hands free to carry the folded pram etc.

I’ve seen many women breastfeeding in the U.K. as they tend to gather near you if you’re openly feeding eg in a cafe I’d be feeding DC, look up and 3 other mums were bf nearby at separate tables! But most of them were more discreet than me and had the hole-in-bra thing with a flap on their top. Or a muslin balanced over the top of boob or a cover. I only used a cover when I had a problem with milk squirting out (didn’t want to accidentally splash someone!)

My babies fed better when I was moving around and liked to hold the whole boob hence the low cut top method!

UK has the lowest rate of breastfeeding in the world)
Is this true?
Other than that YANBU - the South of England in particular is v child unfriendly

Most MNetters would not put up with strangers interacting with their kids in the way that is the norm in Mediterranean countries. I am constantly amazed at threads on here with posters upset that strangers have stroked their baby's cheek (outside of Covid, when I understand it) or even peered into a pram to admire the baby.

UK parents seem to want the welcoming Mediterranean culture but without any of the friendly interaction between children and and strangers (supervised by parents) that that involves - which doesn't work.

The only thing I would say is that on the rare occassion I took my kids on public transport when they were very young and in a pushchair or pram, almost no one ever offered to help. (I know they are my own children and my responsibility).
It is very normal in Ireland to help in this situation. I've lifted pram wheels off a bus or over train grind lots of times.
DD/DS will stand for an adult in need of a seat, we done it automatically as DC.
There has always been good a bad DC.

We’re British, don’t you know! Complaining is what we do. We enjoy complaining; about weather, children, the government, colleagues at work, marriage, housework, & then back to the weather again. It’s 99% of our dialogue, & an accepted social norm. If you didn’t have anything to moan about people would think there was something hideously wrong with you. It’s not real; it’s just a social custom. It makes us feel better.

I also think it’s important to note the correct order in which I listed things we like grumbling about. The weather definitely takes first place, followed very very closely by children.

Our lives would be hollow & devoid of meaning if we weren’t permitted to complain.

Always had people offer to help carry my pram on the underground.

I don't know that the UK is "so child unfriendly" or that it's the only country that expects kids to behave in socially acceptable fashions.

Years ago, I was an au pair in Italy for 6 weeks, and was told there that English au pairs are most people's preference, because we're stricter than others! I also got told off by one of the kids' uncles because I didn't smack the small boy when he hit said uncle on the head with a plastic toy spade - not my place, buddy!

Most of us would be more tolerant of children in public spaces if the parents had taught them boundaries and manners. I note on my rare trips abroad that children are well-behaved at mealtimes and in the streets and shops. Unfortunately this is no longer true in England. I live in an area inundated with summer visitors. I avert my eyes when passing outdoor eating areas as it's like watching a pride of lions on the Serengeti dismembering a wildebeest. Not pretty. As for keeping to one side on the pavements, forget it.

I think there’s also a difference between child-centric and child-friendly. I think the U.K. may have more child-centric activities and parents can be very obsessed with their children, but the society as a whole is not friendly to welcoming and nurturing children. They are seen as the parents’ “problem” alone and are tolerated only if they act like adults. I really appreciate that here if out and about people take the initiative to help or coach or model, eg boarding a bus and trying to fold a buggy someone will help seat my toddler, or at the park another parent will entertain a bunch of the kids at once. They also just seem to enjoy their children more frankly.

I think it’s partly the fault of U.K. parents though who have made it anathema to talk to, let alone even gently tell off their child where needed so now people are scared to even look at another person’s kid! Whereas here sometimes I do feel like people “overstep” but I try to remember that it’s not general a bad thing for people to be interested in him.

Why do people make such stupid comments? The south of England is very child unfriendly. What the whole place?

I fed my 19 month is public the yesterday at the soft play. A grandmother shot me an evil, but frankly I don't care and it was probably as my toddler looks about 3 years old. She was tired ( my toddler and I expect the grandmother too 😉) and wanted a quick feed then went to sleep in the pushchair. Times have changed and no one else even noticed and what they think I don't care.

But I saw an article on someone breastfeeding a newborn in a shop the other day and in the comments people staying they should plan their feeds so as not to need to feed out or not go out was insane. People saying it was gross are insane, it's how people survived before formula.

OP I get what you mean. I remember going to a country behind the iron curtain back in the early 80s. I joined the inevitable long queue to buy something, I had a baby in my arms. Suddenly people started pushing me around, I thought I was being attacked and then I found myself at the front of the queue and a kind man explained that no one expected a woman with a baby to wait. The same when I got on a tram, I was well used to managing alone on buses in England but I found in this country people were fighting to have the "honour" of being the one to carry my buggy/shopping whatever onto the tram and then there was a scramble to give me and my five year old a seat. I said to someone that in England it was expected that children would give their seat to an adult not the other way round. She was horrified and said it was easier and safer for an adult to stand.

It was a great trip.

Completely agree. I'm born and bred here however honestly people love dogs more then children in this country.

Really odd.

I dont really understand this.
Walk to train, tilt pram up a few inches, push onto train.
What help would you need?

Near me there’s a station that has no lift to move from one platform to another - it’s a 5 min walk using an alternative footpath. Strangers helping me carry the pushchair up the steps and down again onto the opposite platform saved loads of time and missed trains. Also some trains have a HUGE step up onto them from the platform - again, definitely easier having someone grab the front of the pushchair when you’re getting on and off.

Hard to breast feed publicly when blokes spend time staring at your tits. It’s why I expressed (multiple reasons) as the tit stating was uncomfortable.

Not a native Brit -- I don't think Britain is exceptional in this, it's neither very friendly or so unfriendly to children. My kids at their ages are generally free to go where they like and are mostly safe to do so, that's child friendly to me.

Defining being friendly to children by whether strangers give them attention especially compared to animals is a little odd to me, there seems to be a lot of other ways to do that which others have pointed out, but I don't think Brits are exceptionally lacking in this. Mine all got that - some of which was nice, some of which was a pain in the ass and I'm glad they've generally aged out of that.

Honestly, I've no desire to coo at either a baby or a puppy, but then I've had the overstimulated kids who just wanted to quiet for a bit while out who got tired by strangers talking and patting them or the non-verbal child who couldn't perform the basic question and answers strangers have wanted.

they are expected to behave to be convenient to others

I think in the UK, and in many other countries, this is an expectation on everyone, not just children. Not everyone follows that obviously, or we'd have fewer threads on it, but generally the culture ideal is around being convenient, for better and worse. Kids are generally raised with the cultural expectations around them.

THERE IS PLENTY OF JUDGMENT BUT NO HELP.

What help do you want? I agree there could be more socially, but it's hard with the ideal of convenience and privacy to really get that going.

I've had plenty of judgement - I'm a disabled immigrant who was a young mother when my first was born. I've had my less than kind people, but I've also had my very sweet people. Wherever, there will be people who run the whole spectrum. I don't think Brits are exceptional in this.

Honestly, coming from a place often spoken of as "family friendly", a lot of it smiles to your face and talking about you behind your back while absolutely never intervening when there is an issue because 'family is important/family knows best' even for abuse. I fucking hated that growing up al the smiles and hugs and remarks, but ten no actual fucking help for kids in need. I know the UK isn't perfect in this, but as pp said, plenty of other countries have far worse rates of parents killing their kids many known for how much they fuss kids, and having survived an attempt as a child, I'll take one of the chillier Brits snide remarks I got when mine were little (even if not as helpful as the speaker might have thought even when I was fucking up) any day over fussing that doesn't have any real support for kids behind it.

I'm always a bit surprised at people saying London is child-unfriendly (or unfriendly full-stop). There is so much to do with children here, people are unobtrusively helpful and, if I take my DC to the playground by myself and not obviously in a group, I'll usually end up chatting to one or two other parents while the kids play.

Within 20 minutes walk of where we live, we have five playgrounds, a splash park, a city farm, two commons, two huge parks and a skate park. All free facilities, although the city farm does ask for a donation. We used to have four soft plays too, but unfortunately all but one has closed due to Covid. Further afield, all the museums have exhibitions and facilities specifically aimed at children and there are so many places to take them.

Yes, no one coos over my DC now they're no longer a baby, but tbh I prefer it that way and quite often other adults do engage with them in a friendly low key way.