Why is UK so child unfriendly?

[bezabez]

Hi! I am foreign person living in the UK for the past 15 years.

I have noticed that the attitudes towards children are really strange in this country. Generally kids aren't accepted to be kids. They are expected to be quiet (ish) if out and about eg in a restaurant or a cafe, women don't breastfeed often in public (UK has the lowest rate of breastfeeding in the world) and they are expected 'to do as you're told' - that's a weird expression in itself tbh and to behave and never show a wild side. If on a train or other public spaces people tend not to engage with them even with babies (where I'm from there would be talking and smiling and general admirations) or tthey make faces, huffing and puffing etc if the children 'misbehave'.

Also parents complain A LOT about having children, sometimes as a form of a banter as these are socially acceptable jokes. Especially during the holidays.

On top of that there aren't many affordable childcare options or things like holiday camps and clubs (I know they exist in bigger cities sometimes but it isn't the same).

Overall it's no place for young people!

Does it come from the Victorian 'kids are to be seen not heard' thing?

Again where I'm from kids are celebrated as the future here they are mostly treated as inconvenience.

This forum will make it seem worse OP

THIS. They like to compete over who has the least tolerance for children. I think it's mainly for the benefit of fellow mumsnetters.

@Benjispruce5

Always had people offer to help carry my pram on the underground.

Me too, and up and down steps, etc. I think the only problem people have with prams/buggies on public transport is the odd ocassion when someone has refused to fold up to allow wheelchair access. Re breastfeeding in public, I only breastfed for a short time, but I preferred to use breastfeeding rooms, which were strictly women/small children only. They don't seem to be very common now, which I think is a shame.

A few years ago there was a parenting book series that was popular with titles like "French Kids don't throw food" which was about how French kids are more obedient and trained into sitting at meal times compared to British kids. My point is that Britain is not the place with the highest expectations.

The talking to you and your child is a geographical thing.

Childcare is expensive but the workers are very low paid so they can't charge less. Free events are more plentiful in the cities but they do them elsewhere too. Do you keep an eye on pages that advertise these ?

Children need to sit in restaurants for safety. Would you be ok if a tray of food or drinks was dropped on your child when they bumped into the serving staff? Do you pick times and restaurants suitable for kids?

@EmeraldShamrock

I think it is generational issue. After a certain age there should be a no child zone housing area for those who want it. It isn't only the UK. I grew up around here. I know parents who raised 8/9 feral DC in their time who have a fit if a ball rolls past the garden these days or the DC laugh loudly or play chasing on the street. It is so rude of them, ageism towards DC. I'd love child free housing estates send the curtain twitches there. Most long-time residents are moans some love DC chat with them. The estate has been build up from 100 homes to hundreds plus apartment blocks. Ireland needs retirement estates. So we can all be happier. PS I bring my DS off 7 hours a day so he doesn't disturb the neighbours. I'm conditioned to care for some reason.

I'm not sure where I'd fit in so I hope the estates would be voluntary. I'm nearly 70, DH mid 70s so I suppose we'd be sent off to a childfree estate if it was compulsory but then how would the neighbours cope with my six GC, two of them practically live with me well they did for a while when SS placed them with me for safety. The others stay over lots in school holidays.

I fear I'd be a displaced person.

@HailAdrian

This forum will make it seem worse OP

THIS. They like to compete over who has the least tolerance for children. I think it's mainly for the benefit of fellow mumsnetters.

Also a lot of people post when they're having problems with their kids and looking for support, so yes there is a certain amount of negativity.

Agree
And thanks to covid and brexit we are stuck here

Regarding
He breastfeeding rate is low because there’s crap all support in the early days for it, not because women don’t want to feed their children in public

I respectfully disagree
We have a major issue with BF here
It’s seen as icky and is done by MC people
And non English /foreigners primarily

Large % of English women won’t

As for other things, I agree we have a Dickensian attitude towards children. Stems from the seen and not heard, it’s almost disrespectful to allow your children to make any sort of noise in a public setting which is inhuman
This is a complete over exaggeration. Are you one of those mums who let your kids be unruly and call it 'just being children'?

It may sound hard to believe to some parents, but most kids, can learn to express themselves and have fun without screaming, screeching, jumping around, and being pests. For that, they indeed need to be taught it. That means consistent, kind reminders, rewards, and punishments when appropriate, not a simple 'hugo, can you please stop my darling', and then left to get on with the behaviour.

Another thing that really annoys me is the growing number of kids with a complete lack of space awareness, who ride their scooters, run around, without a care for those around them. Not talking about a 3 year old, but 7 and older. They even stare at you as you walk, but then make a point of running right in front of you, expecting you to move out of the way. Or in supermarkets. Worse is when they do bump into you, sometimes leaving you with a bruise and they stare at you and can't even manage a 'I'm sorry'. It's quite depressing!

@StrangeToSee

I think it’s partially because many parents in the U.K. raise their kids with no rules or boundaries, so a lot of children are disrespectful to adults (eg interrupting conversations, shouting to get what they want, not respecting elders etc).

In countries where children are brought up in large multi generational families there seem to be more rules and cultural expectations, eg grandparents/aunts/uncles help to enforce boundaries. Children are taught from a young age when it’s appropriate to run around shouting and playing wildly and when they need to sit quietly, and there are consequences for getting it wrong eg acting out at a social event.

Obviously many U.K. parents do this too. But many don’t.

I always wonder if church going plays a part. I was taken to mass from before I was old enough to remember, one of my earliest memories is being at mass, I was in my father's arms, the church was full so standing room only, I was probably 2. It was absolutely not open for discussion that you behaved in church, you sat there for an hour, you knew not to make a noise and our parish church was always crowded so you couldn't run about if you wanted to, going up for communion was difficult enough.

Most people are lovely to my two NT kids, but some of the discrimination my disabled 11 year old has experienced is breathtakingly awful. Fortunately he neither notices nor gives any fucks.

However, those people who go out of their way to speak to us, prioritise us in a queue or even just smile at us, then I salute and thank you.

I never had a problem breastfeeding any of mine. Or noticed anyone staring at me.

I think the OP has had a hard time here. I don't think that the issue is that the UK has a lack of facilities for young children, but more that we, the adults, have a different mindset towards y oung children - which is demonstrated in many of the posts here. We don't want to see young children in restaurants late at night. If they are in restaurants or anywhere else, we expect them to be quiet. We would judge bad parenting or badly behaved children and have higher expectations of behaviour than you would see in many places on the continent. There are lots of posts saying children get too tired and need to eat early. Or that they shouldn't run around.

I think that's a valid point. We do expect children to be quieter and calmer and in bed earlier than they do in other countries.

Ah come on, who else is waiting for 'A waiter tried to snatch and hug my child AIBU?' thread

My sisters ex was French/Algerian and he thought our attitude to children was strange especially how we pack our kids off to bed early.

Agree with #worstthananticipated, breastfeeding rates are not low because of lack of support in the early days, from what I've read on mumsnet, it's more to do with societal attitudes, mamy people seem to hate it, which is a real shame

Disagree with the restaurant/cafe thought. I worked in nurseries for years from a young age they are sat at tables with each other to eat. It’s good for developing social skills.
There’s loads of time for kids to run around and play and enjoy childhood. ( this is very important!) Being in that environment is not one of those times. Asking a child to sit and eat a meal or a short time without causing chaos is not being unfriendly to children. People expecting children too do so for hours are asking too much.

*many

On holiday in Spain, we were enjoying evening dinner at a pavement restaurant (the sort which is a very wide pavement, a boulevard??), when our then 4 year old dropped his bouncy ball and rushed to chase it across the pavement, but tripped and was literally flying through the air when a passing 20 something, a very cool Spanish guy who was walking down the pavement with a friend, just swooped without breaking his stride and plucked my DS up and swung him up before he hit the deck. Set DS down on his feet, waved to us and continued on all without stopping.

It was seriously impressive. He didn't even have to think. Over here, people might think "Oh that kid's going to fall" but there's somehow an instinct not to touch other people's kids or get involved. But that guy, it was clearly second nature to him to watch out for kids (any kid) and he instinctively knew how to catch him before he fell. We really felt the culture difference that day (and were grateful, obviously).

This is interesting.

I don't perceive the UK to be child-unfriendly. I have been out and about quite a bit this month and have seen loads of families out and about and playing in public areas, children making noise, playing with balls and chasing each other etc, and I haven't noticed any negativity towards them.

When I've been abroad I haven't noticed children in restaurants behaving any differently than they do here - and by that I mean a range from sitting eating and talking, to not sitting or eating, but being rather noisy.

I spent a significant amount of time in a different country (not european) where their idea of discipline for children seemed extreme to me. They would probably perceive the UK's treatment of children as being far too relaxed.

As to the question of 'why'? My guess would be it's all to do with perception, and what people regard as normal based on their own experiences.

And before anyone jumps in to say 'but it's different if a child has a disability' it's not, it's really not. They get judged alongside every other child. It's different for my son now he is 11 as even the most judgemental can see that his behaviour isn't normal.

I would say that most people raise their kids as best they can and want them to be kind and respectful. It is wrong to say 'many parents in the UK don't teach their children rules and boundaries' I just don't believe that to be true.

I reckon the low rates of breastfeeding in the UK also has something to do with the poor maternity pay etc, I mean most people need two full time incomes into their household these days, women can’t afford to stay home and breastfeed their babies for extended periods of time, some aren’t even as lucky to get 6 months, I reckon if maternity pay was better, support was better and women could spend longer with their babies then the breastfeeding rates would be higher.

It’s not that low in comparison with many other countries in Europe and the west, according to UNICEF.

I'm a foreigner as well and have lived in the UK for many years. I don't find it unfriendly to children here. I think people are general quite warm towards children.

I think a contributory factor is the lack of acceptance by parents that their child has behaved wrongly or unacceptably, and the negative or aggressive responses that any comment or complaint brings. Teachers no doubt could give examples.

As for breastfeeding, page 3 and the general attitude to bodies and nudity has a lot to answer for.

Agree with @ActonSquirrel. Interestingly I had a friend who brought her girls up with few boundaries when they were young. They were really 'all over the place' when out and about (including in restaurants). I can recall two occasions when I was mistaken for their parent and roundly told off for not 'checking' their behaviour!

Many people do have an issue with bf. Some equate it to poohing in public! I mean how do you get to that way of thinking?!