Why is UK so child unfriendly?

[bezabez]

Hi! I am foreign person living in the UK for the past 15 years.

I have noticed that the attitudes towards children are really strange in this country. Generally kids aren't accepted to be kids. They are expected to be quiet (ish) if out and about eg in a restaurant or a cafe, women don't breastfeed often in public (UK has the lowest rate of breastfeeding in the world) and they are expected 'to do as you're told' - that's a weird expression in itself tbh and to behave and never show a wild side. If on a train or other public spaces people tend not to engage with them even with babies (where I'm from there would be talking and smiling and general admirations) or tthey make faces, huffing and puffing etc if the children 'misbehave'.

Also parents complain A LOT about having children, sometimes as a form of a banter as these are socially acceptable jokes. Especially during the holidays.

On top of that there aren't many affordable childcare options or things like holiday camps and clubs (I know they exist in bigger cities sometimes but it isn't the same).

Overall it's no place for young people!

Does it come from the Victorian 'kids are to be seen not heard' thing?

Again where I'm from kids are celebrated as the future here they are mostly treated as inconvenience.

I don't think it's sad that children are expected to behave in certain places and not get into dangerous situations or ruin the experience of the adults around them.

What I have seen is a broad spectrum of behaviour and parenting in the UK, which I'm sure is similar to other countries as well. Where we live, I do not routinely see children running around in restaurants while their parents make no effort to control them, but I have certainly come across it a few times (and silently judged, I'm afraid). I've also had parents tut-tutting at me for letting my DC play in the dirt or roll in the mud when we're out for a walk, so obviously there are some people who think that a less than pristine child is indicative of poor parenting too.

Pets are more cherished/respected
You say that like it's a bad thing

I agree, op. I live in another country and take my toddler Dd out almost daily to a cafe, it’s very normal, she sits well, I personally wouldn’t let her run around, but when she’s finished she often plays in front of us with other children on the beach etc.
I notice it so much with bedtimes too, British will put the children really early to bed and get a sitter so they can go out (totally get this!) but can be critical of parenting here, in summer, the children stay up later with their parents, visit the restaurants, go to the playground and beach and shops at night. There’s never huge crowds of pissed guys or women staggering around, just a nice atmosphere full of families and friends, such lovely memories for the kids.

@OhSmellyCatSmellyCat

What's wrong with children being expected to be quietish in restaurants or cafes? It's respectful to other diners I'm in the south and everyone makes a fuss of children Where on earth are you???

Yes. This. I’m in Essex and it’s so friendly! My babies were mobbed when they were little!

@HelgaDownUnder

I agree with the OP. The first time I went to Italy with a baby everyone was so helpful and welcoming. In the UK there is an expectation that children will be restricted to their own spaces as they are inconvenient to adults, who expect public spaces to be mostly childfree. It's not universal, obviously, but it's noticeable. I live in Australia, which is like the UK. It's southern Europe and the Med where the difference is noticeable.

The first time I went to southern Italy I was really shocked by how badly behaved children were and how much they were allowed to run riot in locations where it was not just annoying but dangerous (e.g. busy restaurants). I spent a lot of time there over a few years and got used to it but I still can't say that I think it's preferable, even though I guess it would make my life temporarily easier as the parent of small children.

You can’t use the experience of one man to inform your whole opinion of a culture!

The man was also scalding the son verbally in his national language around the pool, before anybody asks how I know that the man waa from the European country in question.

I love my own DC to bits but they would not be allowed to "run free" in restaurants - that would be fairly dangerous.

I really am not keen on other peoples babies or children. Not interested really. Why would I talk to someone elses children on a train?

Both my DC were EBF for 14 months each and never had formula milk.

@UneFoisAuChalet google pgl for something similar.
Also cadets (air, sea and army) brownies, guides, scouts, cubs etc

I can guarantee that the puppy would receive way more attention than the baby.
Eh?!
I dont expect other people to be cooing over my children. They would have hating being taken off by someone they didnt know when younger, neither would they have liked to be fussed over by waiters. The best waiters are unobtrusive and service us without needing to notice they are there overmuch. If I'm at a restaurant with my child or children it's because I want to spend time with them. Not some random waiter well never see again.

@Benjispruce5

You can’t use the experience of one man to inform your whole opinion of a culture!

I'm not. I am asking if smacking in some countries is considered usual/acceptable.

@MissJeanBrodiesprime exactly. You can take children to Macdonalds or Harvester. But god forbid taking them to the local Indian/Italian after 5.

We would take DD to restaurants on Edgeware Road and other Middle Eastern restaurants. It was common to see families with young children in restaurants eating at 10pm. Restaurant staff are normally welcoming but the daggers from other customers when the only thing DD was breathing when it was mainly British diners.

@ActonSquirrel

I would expect a child (who is old enough) to have been taught there is a time and a place

They can run riot in a park, on the beach, their own garden, etc etc

They must not in a restaurant or cafe or or shops or where their behaviour would be a nuisance or disturb others enjoyment.

That's just good parenting not being child unfriendly

Completely agree with this. Children need to learn to behave appropriately in different settings. Basic parenting imho. Im not particularly interested in other peoples DC and wouldnt help unless asked directly or saw someone in distress. Holding doors open etc is basic manners applied to everyone.

I find it odd that OP thinks UK is not child friendly , it is but no one likes poorly parented DC.
I think thats the issue Op

@bezabez

My op is about attitudes not facilities. The last sentence sums up my point.

Pets are more cherished/respected.
If there was a baby and a puppy in the same place at the same time I can guarantee that the puppy would receive way more attention than the baby.

It doesn't matter which country I am from but it is a country in Europe and I have traveled around different European countries and really it is the UK (mostly England) that stands out with this attitudes. All the people arguing really prove my point.

Personally I think it is sad.

How does "all the people arguing prove your point?" Because some people experience a different thing to you and have the nerve to say so that's means you're right? That makes no sense

My baby gets loads of fuss when we're out. Tbh it's getting a bit exhausting. Maybe you're not giving out the right vibes.

I'm always excited to see a puppy though. Puppies are mega 😍

I breastfeed mine walking down the street sometimes and I don’t personally notice but DH notices I get stared at a lot. I’m not bothered at all, I’ve breastfed all over the place because it’s my baby’s food but people do gawp like it’s a weird thing to do. Our overall attitude towards breasts needs to change, they’ve become overly sexualised.

As for other things, I agree we have a Dickensian attitude towards children. Stems from the seen and not heard, it’s almost disrespectful to allow your children to make any sort of noise in a public setting which is inhuman.

[quote Sashimiandhisthunderpaws]@MissJeanBrodiesprime exactly. You can take children to Macdonalds or Harvester. But god forbid taking them to the local Indian/Italian after 5.

We would take DD to restaurants on Edgeware Road and other Middle Eastern restaurants. It was common to see families with young children in restaurants eating at 10pm. Restaurant staff are normally welcoming but the daggers from other customers when the only thing DD was breathing when it was mainly British diners. [/quote]
Tbh I do inwardly sigh when I see a child under about 7 at a restaurant in the evening. Because I have literally never seen this end well or pass without the child becoming a complete nuisance to others at some point.

I agree with some of your points, OP, including the one that it’s about fundamental attitudes, not facilities — I have a nine year old with whom I’ve lived in three countries, and lived in others before I had him. I also think it’s perfectly possible for a culture to be simultaneously child-obsessed and intolerant of children’s presence apart from in a few mandated spaces — and for childcare to be seen as an expensive individual problem, not an important service the state should provide affordably and at a high-quality level. I can’t find the post again, but I think a pp had a point that children are still seen in the UK as a ‘women’s thing’.

I think Mn exemplifies at times a certain kind of perma-tutting intolerance toward child behaviour. One friend of mine with two children with additional needs stopped coming on here because she said that lengthy threads full of judgement about ‘misbehaving’ children in restaurants or supermarkets made her feel worse when dealing with hers having a meltdown in public because she now felt she understood what was behind the glances, or some of them.

Nowadays, it would be considered very odd to give a stranger's children excessive attention.

I’ve lived elsewhere too and this isn’t true OP. In the UK children come first while elsewhere children come last. Kids are shouted, slapped etc where I come from while here that’s abuse. The breastfeeding in public thing is cultural where I come from women’s boobs are out breastfeeding no one complains it’s the norm while here you have to find a place to to hide to breastfeed which I found very strange at first but again it’s the culture.

I travelled in many different countries as a single mum when my kids were little. I rarely needed help, only maybe to help carry luggage. I had help on a casual basis in the UK as well as foreign country. What I have found is that most people are very helpful if you asked politely and kindly.

What I had almost every trip is people commenting on how well behaved and charming my kids were. They only were because I planned every hours of the trips. Everything was on a schedule and therefore under control. I interacted with them, quietly, and also made sure they had plenty to keep them busy.

What I often see in journey with kids who misbehave is parents who just can't be bothered to entertain, interact, watch over their kids. They speak amongst adults, are on their phone, or just standing there doing nothing. they let their kids gradually misbehave more and more until they shout at them to pack it in, if at all. Kids behave for 2 mns and start again. They have nothing but screens to occupy them which are either very noisy, or they get bored with after a few minutes.

Hmm, I am from one supposedly child-friendly country and have lived in another (Italy). It's more complicated than you are suggesting, OP. Yes, Italians will always smile at babies, whereas some Brits will greet you as if you're holding a dog turd. But facilities for the kids in the UK are generally much better - there is a reason why the Italian birth rate is so low! If you think it's hard work pushing a stroller around London, try any Italian city - no dropped kerbs, stairs everywhere, no family toilets (Milan a slight exception)

All the Mediterranean countries with a child-friendly reputation do have boundaries on where you can take kids too. There are unashamedly adult spaces and I think this helps with tolerance of kids in family-friendly areas, because adults have a choice.

I think the UK is set up to include children as much as possible.

I think the difference is we don’t necessarily paw over other peoples children.

When I went to Portugal when DS was a baby someone took him out of his high chair and walked round the restaurant with him because he had ginger hair. I didn’t actually like it too much.

Same for when I was alone in Spain and Greece with him and my two dd’s they kept touching their hair and faces because the girls were white blonde. They didn’t like it. It made me paranoid to constantly have my eye on them.

France when ds and dd were little didn’t have a single high chair and at one restaurant I had to tie dd to an adult chair to secure her in with a hoodie all while we were stared and tutted at because she was making a noise.

I do smile at kids in the supermarket or if if a child is staring in the queue I say hello. But I wouldn’t touch them it’s not appropriate.

Also I do expect kids to kind of be well behaved in restaurants I can’t bear them charging around inside it’s dangerous and not fair to the staff.

The Uk isn’t child unfriendly it’s childcare affordability unfriendly.

@Hemingwaycat

I breastfeed mine walking down the street sometimes and I don’t personally notice but DH notices I get stared at a lot. I’m not bothered at all, I’ve breastfed all over the place because it’s my baby’s food but people do gawp like it’s a weird thing to do. Our overall attitude towards breasts needs to change, they’ve become overly sexualised.

As for other things, I agree we have a Dickensian attitude towards children. Stems from the seen and not heard, it’s almost disrespectful to allow your children to make any sort of noise in a public setting which is inhuman.

I would try not to stare but I would look if you were breastfeeding while walking down the street, in pure admiration! I've fed in public many times and in some quite odd places, but despite trying in a sling I've never managed doing it on the move.

@Hemingwaycat

I breastfeed mine walking down the street sometimes and I don’t personally notice but DH notices I get stared at a lot. I’m not bothered at all, I’ve breastfed all over the place because it’s my baby’s food but people do gawp like it’s a weird thing to do. Our overall attitude towards breasts needs to change, they’ve become overly sexualised.

As for other things, I agree we have a Dickensian attitude towards children. Stems from the seen and not heard, it’s almost disrespectful to allow your children to make any sort of noise in a public setting which is inhuman.

I’d be wondering about the trip hazard rather than anything to do with breastfeeding!

I agree. I live in Hong Kong and have noticed that people are so lovely with my toddler here. They expect him to act like a small child, and they engage with him. In the U.K. we fawn over babies and after that kids are treated like an inconvenience. Yes parents shouldn’t allow wild behaviour to the extent they can control it but also there’s little recognition in the U.K. that small kids are learning and training and not fully developed yet.

Also here there are amazing playgrounds everywhere.