Why is UK so child unfriendly?

[bezabez]

Hi! I am foreign person living in the UK for the past 15 years.

I have noticed that the attitudes towards children are really strange in this country. Generally kids aren't accepted to be kids. They are expected to be quiet (ish) if out and about eg in a restaurant or a cafe, women don't breastfeed often in public (UK has the lowest rate of breastfeeding in the world) and they are expected 'to do as you're told' - that's a weird expression in itself tbh and to behave and never show a wild side. If on a train or other public spaces people tend not to engage with them even with babies (where I'm from there would be talking and smiling and general admirations) or tthey make faces, huffing and puffing etc if the children 'misbehave'.

Also parents complain A LOT about having children, sometimes as a form of a banter as these are socially acceptable jokes. Especially during the holidays.

On top of that there aren't many affordable childcare options or things like holiday camps and clubs (I know they exist in bigger cities sometimes but it isn't the same).

Overall it's no place for young people!

Does it come from the Victorian 'kids are to be seen not heard' thing?

Again where I'm from kids are celebrated as the future here they are mostly treated as inconvenience.

I’m also a foreign person who has been living in the uk for 15 years. I really can’t say if my own country is more child friendly than the UK because obviously I’m only home for ‘holidays’, however I will say that the children in the UK have very few options during the summer.

Summer camps. I loved leaving my parents for a week or two to attend a camp somewhere in a forest, near a lake with children my own age. I would love for my children to experience that - it’s such a rite of passage. You learn how to cook, clean, take care of yourself, budget your pocket money for sweets, make new friends, try new things.

Yes, some kids were dumped there all summer, but most just spent a few weeks. And before anyone assumes it was only for ‘rich’ kids, it wasn’t. I assume there must be some summer camps for kids somewhere in the UK but none in my neck of the woods 🤷‍♀️

Also my children’s regular activities (football, tennis, rugby) seemingly come to a stand still during the summer. Why is that? I had tennis lessons during the summer and I remember getting on my bike to get there for 10am at the courts 3 days a week. I was probably 11/12 and becoming independent. The only thing I have found similar here is football camp that runs from 10 to 3 for a few days a week which is only offered to primary kids. I’m looking for activities for pre teens, young teens - kids here just roam around our town randomly with nothing to do and that eventually leads to trouble.

You are joking aren't you? Ours is the most ridiculously child centred society that has ever existed, though that does not make it a safe place for children. Other societies (where the adults are firmly in charge) seem to be far better places for kids to grow up in.

When children are taught boundaries and that not everything revolves around them then that's much better for their future than the mawkish and sentimental "celebrating" children as the future.

My op is about attitudes not facilities. The last sentence sums up my point.

Pets are more cherished/respected.
If there was a baby and a puppy in the same place at the same time I can guarantee that the puppy would receive way more attention than the baby.

It doesn't matter which country I am from but it is a country in Europe and I have traveled around different European countries and really it is the UK (mostly England) that stands out with this attitudes. All the people arguing really prove my point.

Personally I think it is sad.

If there was a baby and a puppy in the same place at the same time I can guarantee that the puppy would receive way more attention than the baby.

That's purely because puppies are cute and babies generally resemble a potato with ears.

I agree with the OP. The first time I went to Italy with a baby everyone was so helpful and welcoming. In the UK there is an expectation that children will be restricted to their own spaces as they are inconvenient to adults, who expect public spaces to be mostly childfree.

It's not universal, obviously, but it's noticeable.
I live in Australia, which is like the UK. It's southern Europe and the Med where the difference is noticeable.

But why does your child need attention, and why would you expect that?
I find that a bit weird to be honest.
Children aren't pets, they are human beings and don't need to be fawned over by strangers.

@SmidgenofaPigeon

I kind of agree with your breastfeeding statement but

I BF for 2.5 years it was hard at first but I was adamant it would get better which it did!
But the uk is not BF friendly sure there are cafes etc that say they are but the customers tell a different story
I was often made to feel like I was doing something disgusting

But I've got a thick skin so didn't bother me but I know it put a few of the muns in my group off

Is it the fault of strangers or obsessive parenting though?
How many threads are on here an old woman touched my babies hand. I was so shaken up, I’m anxious. So rude who would think they have the right to talk to my baby and touch their hand.

I often find it so sad the older generation can’t share the joy small children bring, and children can’t feel part of wide society because parents are so over the top.
I mean the height of covid pandemic yes I get that but there has been people that go on like this as if every stranger is some germ ridden terrible threat to their baby. Nuts.

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

If there was a baby and a puppy in the same place at the same time I can guarantee that the puppy would receive way more attention than the baby.

That's purely because puppies are cute and babies generally resemble a potato with ears.

🤣

Some of any negative attitude may well come from the fact that a significant minority of parents seem to think that their children must be allowed to behave exactly as they like wherever they happen to be, including screaming, running riot, climbing on furniture, etc., in places where it’s just not appropriate. Not to mention the child I saw gleefully and quite deliberately trampling over a bed of scillas in Kew Gardens, while the parents looked on fondly and said not a word.

This.

There is a minority of parents who seem to think that their indulgence of their children trumps every single other person, and if the kids are having fun that's all that matters. Child trampling flowers? Fine, as child is having fun. Child throwing things at wildlife? Fine, child is having fun. Child destroying toys in a play area? Doesn't matter, THEIR child is happy & to hell with the other children who want to play with that toy, or to the people who need to clear up and replace the item at their own expense. Child throwing rubbish around, right next to a bin? Fine, some poor sap is being paid to clean up their rubbish. Child is screaming & running round a restaurant? Child is happy, so don't worry that other people are having their meal ruined by the noise, or the child bashing into them while they are trying to eat, or tripping up the waiting staff.

I saw a young child chasing a flock of geese recently until they fled into the nearby water. This is dangerous for a number of reasons. A) geese can be very territorial and agressive, especially in the nesting season. B) the child could have easily fallen into the water, which though not deep had branches etc on the bottom which could trap the child under water. C) the geese could have been driven into e.g. another child and hurt them. Apart from this, it's cruel to the geese to frighten them. The parent seemed to think that as the child was having fun, that's all that mattered.

The sheer ENTITLEMENT of a few parents is what makes some people less tolerent of children.

Note I've said a minority, and a few, parents. I'm not judging all and I've seen many children having a great time without ruining things for other people.

I’m 37 weeks pregnant and still way more likely to coo over a puppy then a baby 😂 in fact 100% I’d be more excited at giving a puppy a fuss over holding some random baby.

You sound a bit ridiculous OP.

I would say (mostly) people love babies and stop to coo/ask about them. And like others I think I would expect different behaviours in different settings. Children running about and shouting at the park or the beach, or in the garden or soft play is ok. Using a scooter is fun in the park or on quiet roads but not really ok in a busy supermarket.
There are ways to play and interact with children in busy or confined areas like public transport, or restaurants. Often asking a child to sit still or not run around in a restaurant or on a train is as much for their own safety as everyone elses - it doesnt mean we dont like them or dont care about them.

@HelgaDownUnder

I agree with the OP. The first time I went to Italy with a baby everyone was so helpful and welcoming. In the UK there is an expectation that children will be restricted to their own spaces as they are inconvenient to adults, who expect public spaces to be mostly childfree. It's not universal, obviously, but it's noticeable. I live in Australia, which is like the UK. It's southern Europe and the Med where the difference is noticeable.

I am half Italian, and spend a lot of time in Italy. Italians will always remark on how well my children were behaved. So much more so than Italian children. They are desperate to get proper English nannies to bring up their children properly.

Italian children are adored, as were mine. But they can be little devils especially late at night, and are generally much more whiney and entitled than English children. Their parents would agree.

Sorry, OP I do disagree. I have travelled a lot as a Nanny and feel the UK is pretty good/not that different to other European countries. Also, the UK is tiny and giving children free reign to play and be kids is becoming harder. We utilise the soft plays, parks, playgrounds etc for free play but, if a child is in a restaurant, they should be expected to behave. Same as planes, trains, shops and so forth.

I have experienced lots of positive engagement with my own children from living in London to now living in the Midlands. Your experience might be down to you just having different parenting styles to other mums maybe?

Where are you from? How old are your kids? Are you a gentle parent or more strict? There will definitely be a cultural shift if you have been a mother in more than one country. I am also sorry to hear you have had experiences that make it seem like the UK isn't child friendly.

Being chatted to and welcomed by random adults is part of how you learn you are a valued member of society in general and your local community in particular. At least that's how it works in southern Europe, in the UK all people interacting with a strangers child are of course dangerous paedophiles.

Breastfeeding rates are lower in many other countries including Ireland and France and the US.

I agree with some of what you are saying op

I personally never found bf in public an issue and child facilities good here and I traveled quite a bit with ds when he was young

I do agree we expect children to act like little adults compared to some countries. They don’t expect what we consider to be good behaviour they just more inclined to allow children to be children. I took ds everywhere with me (single) and if I was in a restaurant late I have had some comments (he was fine could sleep anywhere or would be happy with the fuss from friends) but some did openly frown upon this as many here are obsessed with routines and he should have been at home

Though I find here quite friendly towards children compared to some countries children are constantly fussed over which I think is lovely or is completely ignored that children are running about playing loudly parents just get on with talking not expecting them to quieten down because adults are wanting to socialise

I am a foreign person myself (been living in England for the past two decades) but I disagree with the UK not being children friendly.
My own European country is WAY worse and as I have only this as a comparison I think the UK are actually doing pretty well.

• There are changing tables/areas in every restaurant or cafeteria or public space, often well equipped. In my country you'd struggle to find one in a mainstream airport, let alone restaurants.
• There are lots of playgrounds around all residential areas.
• There are many restaurants that are family friendly, with children's menus, some type of entertainment brought to the table (coloring sheets etc). Again, many restaurants outside the touristic spots don't even have options for children.
• I think there are actually a lot of activities, groups, camps, classes for children vs relying on grandparents only.
• Breastfeeding is the norm in my British circle of friends vs formula is the norm in my Italian circle of friends.

I agree in some other countries people make more of a fuss of young children, but don’t agree the UK is “child unfriendly”. I live in London and breastfed 3 babies and the only place I ever had a comment on it was… France.
I also find people very chatty when I’m out with the children, especially when they were babies. I am quite a chatty person though and happy to engage with strangers, which I hope sets a positive example to my children. Maybe if you are expecting negativity people pick up on that and won’t want to engage with you/your children?

Keep hearing about how people in southern europe are so good with babies/children, but we've noticed that they adore babies, adore children up until the age of 3 or 4, then a certain benign neglect manifests and children are left to their own devices. When family groups meet in restaurants everyone passes babies round the table and coos at them while the older children run riot and annoy the other customers .

I disagree on interaction. I always found people chatted to me and my babies more than they do when I’m alone. I always smile at babies and children now. Though I do work in primary so have an interest. I breast fed but I preferred privacy. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with expecting good behaviour in certain places like restaurants for everyone’s enjoyment.

I was abroad and shocked to see a man smacking his young son several times, let alone for a minor misdemeanor.

The man did not hide the smackingd - in fact, it was a public, humiliating smacking - and acted as if it was normal behaviour.

I have never raised a hand to my kids and was horrified. Is this normal behaviour in some countries?

Queen Victoria

The only thing I would say is that on the rare occassion I took my kids on public transport when they were very young and in a pushchair or pram, almost no one ever offered to help. (I know they are my own children and my responsibility)
I was even talking on the platform with a man I knew from the same church while we waited for the train, and as soon as the train came he said "nice talking to you " and walked up the other end to get on leaving me to get the baby in the pram onto the train by myself!

Now I am really conscious of it and if i see a parent on their own with children i always offer to help.