Why is UK so child unfriendly?

[bezabez]

Hi! I am foreign person living in the UK for the past 15 years.

I have noticed that the attitudes towards children are really strange in this country. Generally kids aren't accepted to be kids. They are expected to be quiet (ish) if out and about eg in a restaurant or a cafe, women don't breastfeed often in public (UK has the lowest rate of breastfeeding in the world) and they are expected 'to do as you're told' - that's a weird expression in itself tbh and to behave and never show a wild side. If on a train or other public spaces people tend not to engage with them even with babies (where I'm from there would be talking and smiling and general admirations) or tthey make faces, huffing and puffing etc if the children 'misbehave'.

Also parents complain A LOT about having children, sometimes as a form of a banter as these are socially acceptable jokes. Especially during the holidays.

On top of that there aren't many affordable childcare options or things like holiday camps and clubs (I know they exist in bigger cities sometimes but it isn't the same).

Overall it's no place for young people!

Does it come from the Victorian 'kids are to be seen not heard' thing?

Again where I'm from kids are celebrated as the future here they are mostly treated as inconvenience.

@Whattheschitt

This thread has made the news 😂 came up on my facebook feed.

Which news source? Is it the Mail? They usually like to drag stories out from Mumsnet posts.

I could take my DC to most places as a baby (pushchair or no pushchair). I just don't think it's necessary for a child-friendly society that babies/children can go absolutely everywhere.

@vivainsomnia

Not the point. The point is people's attitudes, Kids= inconvenience. Why? You've been told over and over 25 pages!!

Because sadly, although some kids are well-behaved in all circumstances, and well-behaved doesn't mean quiet and still at all time, but reasonably calm, not running around, unaware of their surroundings, not screaming, shouting, screeching, many are and this is becoming more and more common, almost every you go.

It's not the kids I avoid, it's their lazy, entitled parents who let them get on with being annoying and disruptive.

I live in a buckets and spades seaside town. Currently we are full with many of the visitors being families with children on school holidays. The caravan parks, hotels, b&bs etc are full. I know as so many family were visiting us we had a look for some cheap rooms so some of them could sleep elsewhere. Nothing available.

I haven't seen any kids running round screaming shouting etc except at the seafront playground. They probably are on the beach as well but I can't go on the sand at the moment as have a broken ankle and my crutches would be awkward.

We eat out two or 3 times a week, sometimes on the seafront, sometimes a mile or so back from the beach, sometimes lunch and sometimes evening. Not seen any bad behaviour.

Went to the zoo one day and that was a nightmare. It was back when we had extremely hot weather and all the little kids seemed to be crying and upset but not bad behaviour. They were mainly preschoolers as it was still term time.

Where do you live? The only place I have ever encountered this kind of behaviour from children is in a soft play centre or at a child's party
Lucky you. The worse place is the sport/health club. Running in the changing rooms, screaming/shouting in the shower rooms, running every where in the cafe area, the corridors and mums just let their kids do so.

It's been in hotels and restaurants, with kids talking so loud you can't even have a conversation. Then the bus and train...

You are right though, I have notice that the more disruptive the children, the louder the mother herself.

You have that right yes but don't be surprised if these children choose not to interact with you in the future (when you are elderly and need looking after).
You reap what you sow...

It's always fascinating how these children are always going to be looking after elderly people and not bankers or politicians or other,profession that is, shall we say, seen as uncaring?

Ultimately, I have found that indeed, many parents don't see or hear it because they are accustomed to it from their own kids. That's the problem, because it's their normality, they can't comprehend that it is actually stressful to others. Very similar to dog owners who bark a lot. One of my friends has one of them. She has issues with her neighbour and doesn't understand why they are so obsessed about it. I understanding, just 5 minutes there and I start to get stressed, but she is so used to it, it doesn't bother her much any longer.

@P999

Where have you been to in the uk and what sorts of restaurants do you go to? I dont recognise any of what you're saying. I'm a londoner. Think it's great for kids.

I agree. I never had any trouble taking my children to restaurants - we chose appropriate restaurants and ate at a time that worked for the children's schedules, took stuff to entertain them.

You will notice that in those "more child friendly" countries that the children do NOT run around shouting. They sit with their family, chat, play etc

@vivainsomnia

Where do you live? The only place I have ever encountered this kind of behaviour from children is in a soft play centre or at a child's party Lucky you. The worse place is the sport/health club. Running in the changing rooms, screaming/shouting in the shower rooms, running every where in the cafe area, the corridors and mums just let their kids do so.

It's been in hotels and restaurants, with kids talking so loud you can't even have a conversation. Then the bus and train...

You are right though, I have notice that the more disruptive the children, the louder the mother herself.

I was in museum a few days ago, one that is really focused on children which is great! I had my 6 year old with me and we went in the cafe there and the noise and behaviour from one of the families was just horrendous. The parents just sat there, drinking coffee and chatting while their 3 darlings were screaming, hitting each other and fighting over books in the book corner. They literally did nothing. My son looked at me and said "they are naughty mummy". I just wouldn't stand for that.

You may have a relevant point but it is lost as you appear utterly ghastly

There is definitely a lot more cooing over babies in countries like turkey. They seem to really really love babies and children. We went to Istanbul when dd2 was just under 2, and the number of times she was picked up out of her stroller by mostly male market holders and hugged and praised and chatted to was quite alarming in the beginning as we're just not used to it here are we it's just not the done thing. I would go round the beautiful stalls with handmade lamps and tell the dds to not touch and be careful etc and the stall holders would every time reassure me that it was absolutely fine, don't worry etc etc. Same for the Hagia Sophia and the blue mosque. We were made to feel so welcome and comfortable and no one seemed to be on high alert around these gorgeous and ancient buildings. In fact, there was hardly anyone there to watch your every move.

I'm going to compare this with a very specific experience we had last week. We went as a large group to a stately home and there were six children - all girls - all together. Four of them are older so it's not like we took six toddlers! The younger two are 4 and 5 but very very well behaved and familiar with going to places like this. There were four parents and we were very careful with the kids, telling them to not touch or lean or anything around the expensive paintings etc. However we had a very negative experience of one of the women who worked there that seemed to be continuously watching us in that part of the house where she was standing, and continuously coming over and asking the girls to be careful and to not lean on anything or touch anything. It really was the most bizarre experience because I've never experienced anything like it before. I was wondering whether it's because we were in a large group that made it appear like that to her but really, we were being so careful and not a single tiny bit of damage was done ! It was her tone and body language and facial expression that seemed very off and we were quite shocked by how angry she appeared for no reason!

If this is what the op means then I get it. I just can't see anything like this happening in a country like turkey, for example. It's more of an attitude difference than anything else.

As a whole though, I think in terms of practicality and provision, the uk is very good for example high chairs/kids clubs and activities, that sort of thing. It's just not as tolerant towards children as some other countries appear to be.

There is definitely a lot more cooing over babies in countries like turkey. They seem to really really love babies and children. We went to Istanbul when dd2 was just under 2, and the number of times she was picked up out of her stroller by mostly male market holders and hugged and praised and chatted to was quite alarming in the beginning as we're just not used to it here are we grin it's just not the done thing.

If that happened here, MNers would be calling the men "paedos" and recommending you call the police to "get it logged".

My DD is almost 2, we have not travelled anywhere out of the UK since she was born, so I cannot compare the attitudes towards young children, i.e UK v France.

from my own experiences...

I am still breastfeeding and do so in public often. I have never had anyone look at me in a funny way, but I admit, I have not seen many bf mothers myself. Then, again, it's not exactly something I look out for.

I find that when we are out and about, my dd gets quite alot of attention from people, smiling at her and saying hello. Especially older people who seem to find it a joy to see her {and other kids} running around, playing etc. I am the same with other children I see, I always wave and say hello.

I don't tell my dd to 'be quiet' I have never said that to her. She is only 2.
I want her to be able to express herself freely. However, if we are in restaurant or a cafe, I do try and keep her at the table and encourage her to draw etc. That is not just about me being respectful to other diners, but also because I want us to eat our food/drink our coffee without having to get up every 30 seconds chasing a toddler around!
I actively encourage her to run around and be silly as soon as we get to a park or playgroup etc.

On another note, we've been down to London a few times {We live up north} and people have been lovely down there too.

Childcare IS expensive in the UK though, that's for sure.

I don't agree with you OP. My kids have always been welcomed in places. They are well behaved and polite and I did not take them to inappropriate places when they were young (e.g. posh restaurants in the evening), as they would not have been able to behave in a way which was not irritating (at best) for others. Adults cannot go into places with certain expectations and do things which disturb others (e.g. I can't go to a library and start playing music). Helping our kids to not be forced to do developmentally inappropriate things is not been cruel or dismissive to them. It is nurturing them. I've seen lots of children in restaurants abroad. On some occasions the children are clearly bored rigid and IMHO it's cruel to make them sit there rather than play in the corner. Here and abroad I've seen lots of children sitting in restaurants engaged and part of things. I've never seen anyone object to a crying baby unless the crying continues for a long time and, despite there being an option to remove the baby from the situation, the parents choose not to do so. Having regard for other people's needs is not unfriendly to children it is basic respect for others. We are a country that often does not engage with other people's children but honestly that can be irritating and intrusive so don't assume that everyone sees that as a good thing. I lived abroad for 10 years BTW so I can compare well.

Just to add, I breastfed for a while. I had one negative comment from a teenage boy. His mate told him he was being stupid and it was the most natural thing in the world.

@SoupDragon very true. We are so geared up to think that, that I'm not going to lie, it's the first thing that would cross my mind every time it happened. I was so uncomfortable with it to begin with but found it rude to just snatch my dd back when they were clearly being just affectionate . I saw them doing it with other babies , and Turkish parents being totally chilled about it. I love that though, I wish we had that here.

[quote EarthSight]@karmakameleon

In the same way that I might help an old lady with her bags or guide a blind person across the road. People helping each other is a marker of a civilised society

Yes. I feel differently about those scenarios though. However, what kind of help would someone need with their kids?? Helping someone get a pram off a bus is one thing, but are strangers supposed to sit down next to a parent on the train and help them spoon-feed their toddler? What about nappy changing? If a toddler is screaming their face off, what help could a stranger do in that scenario other than making sock-puppets?

Let's face it - it's certainly not men that are expected to do those things - it's other women because we're expect to help out with society's many, caring duties even with kids that aren't even ours.[/quote]
That's the difference I have found in Spain is that men get involved with DC as much as women.

@vivainsomnia

Where do you live? The only place I have ever encountered this kind of behaviour from children is in a soft play centre or at a child's party Lucky you. The worse place is the sport/health club. Running in the changing rooms, screaming/shouting in the shower rooms, running every where in the cafe area, the corridors and mums just let their kids do so.

It's been in hotels and restaurants, with kids talking so loud you can't even have a conversation. Then the bus and train...

You are right though, I have notice that the more disruptive the children, the louder the mother herself.

The trouble is that inherently badly behaved children are much more noticeable and intrusive than well behaved ones. I've had the experience before of being somewhere where people have complained that 'the children' are running riot but where in fact they hadn't noticed the majority who were behaving well because the minority who weren't were so obvious

I find the OP odd because surely they must have noticed that in the UK a good proportion of people just let their kids rampage screaming with no consideration for anyone else, whereas in the continent more DC understand how to behave properly and with consideration for others, so it is easier to integrate children into 'grown-up' situations that just isn't possible if your DC have been raised to not give a thought to anyone else and to put number one first.

But I do agree with OP about lack of holiday camps. I think many kids in the UK would love the US-style holiday camps.

@monogoo

The type of restaurant with candles and flowers on the tables for example.

I've been to a fair few of these restaurants in the evening. I don't think I've ever seen a dc screaming running around in one whilst their parents make sweet talk to each other in the soft candlelight. Perhaps there isn't much choice where you live.

That’s sort of my point. You don’t see children in bars and restaurants in the late evening here, and that is being touted as a reason that the UK is not child friendly, because children are out and about much later in other countries.

I think many kids in the UK would love the US-style holiday camps

I’m sure it’s much easier gushing about the joys of parenting and children when you pay someone else to entertain your children over the summer.

I’m sure it’s much easier gushing about the joys of parenting and children when you pay someone else to entertain your children over the summer.

🤣🤣 true

So in terms of comparisons I have experience of, IMO Europe is generally more accepting of children. I have had screaming children in German and Italian restaurants, and the guests and staff have not been in the slightest disturbed. Quite the reverse they were very supportive and welcoming and helpful. In the UK there is hostility and in one case I actually got asked to leave! Childcare is generally on a different planet in most of Western Europe and society values and includes children. For example, in Italy and Germany, I have never seen a wedding which did not have children, in the UK this is common. In Malaysia, where I also have experience, for most women, childcare is better via state provision, and there is usually widescale family support. Children are treasured at restaurants and family events and not having them at a wedding would be unthinkable.

IMO the UK is more individually centred. I am not sure if this is necessarily wrong, but it is a statement of where we are, and the impact of that is very much along the lines of your child is your problem, where elsewhere you get more slack?

We’ve just got back from a trip into central London. We went for brunch and then a walk along the Grand Union Canal. Some examples of anti-social behaviour we saw:

• At brunch the man at the table next to us split his drink, made a mess. He had no volume control and I know a lot more about what’s happening at his work than I need to.

• Walking along the canal path, there were several aggressive adult cyclists who rang their bells and expected everyone to jump out of their way. Not acceptable behaviour on a shared path with pedestrians, especially one by water where I would expect people to be mindful of safety.

• An adult woman with a dog she wasn’t properly watching, allowed her dog to cross the path and nearly tripped over a runner. The runner had already served to avoid the dog and was close to the water, but nearly fell because the dog unexpectedly lurched towards her. The dog owner giggled and made a half hearted apology. The runner ran on clearly irritated.

• There was an obscene amount of litter in the canal. Lots of discarded bottles and cans, presumably left by adults as drinks were mainly alcoholic.

• My nine year old was quite intimated by the large number of adults at Camden. He was surprised when I said it wasn’t actually that busy at it was still early.

• On the train gone a large group of young adults were drinking and taking over the carriage. They were quite drunk even though it was only lunchtime. Their conversation was not suitable to be hear by the children who had to share a carriage with them.

• When we arrived at our station, there was a large police presence because our local park is hosting a music festival this weekend. I have never seen additional policing when the park has “family oriented” events on.

None of this is usually worthy of comment and it’s normal adult behaviour. Adults make a mess, make noise and get in people’s way. And we tolerate it. But for children we seem to expect higher standards of behaviour.