Why is UK so child unfriendly?

[bezabez]

Hi! I am foreign person living in the UK for the past 15 years.

I have noticed that the attitudes towards children are really strange in this country. Generally kids aren't accepted to be kids. They are expected to be quiet (ish) if out and about eg in a restaurant or a cafe, women don't breastfeed often in public (UK has the lowest rate of breastfeeding in the world) and they are expected 'to do as you're told' - that's a weird expression in itself tbh and to behave and never show a wild side. If on a train or other public spaces people tend not to engage with them even with babies (where I'm from there would be talking and smiling and general admirations) or tthey make faces, huffing and puffing etc if the children 'misbehave'.

Also parents complain A LOT about having children, sometimes as a form of a banter as these are socially acceptable jokes. Especially during the holidays.

On top of that there aren't many affordable childcare options or things like holiday camps and clubs (I know they exist in bigger cities sometimes but it isn't the same).

Overall it's no place for young people!

Does it come from the Victorian 'kids are to be seen not heard' thing?

Again where I'm from kids are celebrated as the future here they are mostly treated as inconvenience.

I don’t think most people think kids are an inconvenience. Personally I have taken DS to a whole host of places since he was a baby with no issues at all.

I was out last night listening to some music in a lovely town centre market and there was a massive range of ages from babies up in there. Some children having a lovely time dancing around, certainly no sign of them being an inconvenience!

@SmidgenofaPigeon

He breastfeeding rate is low because there’s crap all support in the early days for it, not because women don’t want to feed their children in public.

Teaching children boundaries and how they should behave in public is no bad thing. The park is a great place for them to let off a wild side. A cafe or a train, not so much.

Lack of affordable childcare is the fault of the government, and that is a big problem. Do you have a good system where you are from for affordable childcare?

This isn't true, the reason for low rates of bf are complex. It is much more to do with cultural expectations. Lots of visitors coming in, mum feeling she can't bf in front of them, baby getting passed around everyone so staying fast asleep etc is definitely a part of it.

As a midwife, the first lockdown was amazing for me to see the impact of that - no visitors meant I spent 4 months not having to refer any babies back up for jaundice, weightloss, etc. Our bf rates were amazing - but alas it all reverted back at the end of lockdown. Given that staff shortages meant the bf support would have been poorer at that time, I think its fair to attribute it to the lack of visitors.

There is a major cultural issue here - bf is simply not seen as the norm. Formula and bottles are everywhere. Siblings don't get to see babies bf so it isn't assumed to be the norm by them growing up. It isn't talked about generally or learned about in school. Family and friends are constantly pressuring women to give the baby a bottle to make them sleep longer.

It is easy to blame midwives I know, but believe me that view is far too simplistic and gets us nowhere. BF rates in Ireland are similar to Northern Ireland - Ireland doesn't even have community midwives, no one comes to your home to help you. NI does have community mw with at least 3 long home visits, more as needed. America has good bf rates yet also no postnatal care. You have to pay a couple of hundred pounds there just to hold your baby skin to skin after a section! There really isn't evidence to suggest that support from a HCP is the one key to improving bf rates.

I can really see where the OP is coming from. Children are certainly well catered for in terms of facilities in the uk but I think that is because they are seen as needing to be kept separate from adults. There is less acceptance of them being around adults/in places that are seen as 'for adults', like restaurants especially in evenings. In Spain for example you could go out to dinner at 9pm with kids and it would be fine, no one would think it's odd. In the uk you'd get looks (unless it was some where in a big city with mainly non British clientele!), even if your kids were well behaved. This is obv related to the fact people eat later in Spain but I do think there is more acceptance of kids being part of life in Mediterranean countries in particular.

I was talking to DH about a connected issue this morning. I love in central London and we take our kids to eat out a lot - no where posh more like China town and other mid priced places, Usually Asian, & mainly at lunch time. As a result of going out regularly our kids are pretty well behaved in restaurants. Some of my friends with kids rarely do this, and as a result rarely eat out. I suspect it's is because they live in the suburbs, with fewer 'ethnic restaurants', as it's these places where kids are always welcome. Interestingly these restaurants do not lay on special stuff for kids beyond high chairs (you never get a colouring pack or kids menu in China town) but the staff just accept kids will be there, which is all I want.

@Jangle33

Who would want noisy children running round a restaurant, I really don’t think that’s acceptable in any country including the U.K.

I have to agree! Though I must admit I prefer it to hearing Peppa Pig loudly on their tablet haha!

I think a lot of it is interacting with children in even the least offensive way might invite abuse by the parent. I was in the supermarket and heard someone say to DC1 "don't hit your brother" (both in trolley) instead if tearing a new one I told DC off for hitting their sibling but a lot of parent would object.

But in a carrier of some sort they tend to take up far less space. There are often threads about the size of buggies or "taking up the coffee shop with huge buggies" etc hence why I would always use a carrier. Feeding doesn't matter but I'm not sure why bf triggered you.

It didn't (not relevant but I bf my DC until 20 months). But I'm amazed that it seems incomprehensible to some parents that, regardless of how they choose to feed and transport their children, some restaurants may not welcome them. It may have nothing to do with the space the child takes up but more that the restaurant does not welcome the noise and disruption caused by young children.

Privatehall, that's interesting, so then the hurdle to overcome is to get women more comfortable with the idea of bf infront of others

@PrivateHall
I don't want to hijack this thread but in my experience there is very little pragmatic and practical breastfeeding support. I had contradictory and confusing advice from HV, Community midwives, hospital midwives, breastfeeding clinic, GP. Not one of the health professionals actually diagnosed the real issue which was lactose intolerance.

@PrivateHall I agree there's a cultural difference. I also think women are expected to give birth & get on with everything straight away & obviously some have no choice. My mum bf (very normal in her culture) & everyone else I knew did & it was all very out in the open so I just assumed I would too.

@PrivateHall in Ireland you have visits from a public health nurse postnatally who are trained in helping new mothers and can refer on if any further help is needed

I find that children are allowed to be children longer in other countries. In the UK there seems to be rush for then to grow up and be independent mini adults by the time they go to secondary or shortly after

But I'm amazed that it seems incomprehensible to some parents that, regardless of how they choose to feed and transport their children, some restaurants may not welcome them. It may have nothing to do with the space the child takes up but more that the restaurant does not welcome the noise and disruption caused by young children.

Well that's a separate point to finding something superior.
I think it depends on the restaurant, plus I've been to dozens of restaurants that are very noisy despite the absence of kids 🤷🏻‍♀️

I think, unfortunately, threads like this attract people who really dislike children and also don't understand people who choose to have them as they themselves have chosen to remain childless. Or maybe they just need a good shag or something, I don't know.
Whatever their reasons for this attitude ultimately you have to pity them. It must be a bit of a sad life to live with that sour mindset. It reminds me of an old neighbour of ours who used to live alone, constantly looking out of the window to complain about kids playing near his car, shaking his fist if a ball went near his window or there was any noise. "Grumpy Jim" he was know as. He didn't have any family though, or if he did they didn't visit him. I think he became kind of pickled too, out of loneliness and bitterness.

As pps have said, why come on a thread discussing this country's attitude to children, on parenting forum and keep on making statements about how you dislike children, are not obliged to hear any noise anywhere, ever from children or even ever speak to a child. They usually refer to children and babies in derogatory terms like snot-nosed kids, "not everyone wants to coo over your baby" etc and just come across as thoroughly nasty, miserable individuals.

I generally am not interested in other peoples children myself and have been woken up this morning at 7am by a neighbours kids screeching "wake up, wake up wake up" in the garden over and over again however experiencing bratty children doesn't make me dislike them as a whole because I have the brains to realise they are not one homogenous mass and that there are children who bring laughter and delight with the things they say and do - probably even the annoying kid next door is sometimes funny and cute and interesting. They are just small people after all and individuals just like adults.
I generally dislike dogs but I wouldn't say "I don't like all dogs" as some dogs can be cute and funny and I am able to realise that it's usually dog owners that I actually dislike - the ones who treat their dogs like babies, or don't pick up their shit, or let people trip over their extendable leads in the park or let them bound up to people. But I choose to believe that most dog owners are good people who will not do these things, as I try to have a positive view of people and don't want to let some dog owners tar all others with the same brush. Sometimes I think "I wish dogs were banned from the park" but I know ultimately that isn't fair as they have to be exercised and we share the planet with them. I can't expect them to always be perfectly behaved in public as they are often still learning, or have crap owners who can't be bothered training them. Just like children.

Always smile back at children. To ignore them is to destroy their belief that the world is good. Pam Brown

You were all children once folks, don't forget that!

You were all children once folks, don't forget that!

I find it odd that some talk as if they never were one!

Not the point. The point is people's attitudes, Kids= inconvenience. Why?

I think people like to complain in this country. Probably a bit to do with the (generally crap) weather or people being entitled and privileged and not really having much to moan about so they moan about things like kids in restaurants or someone breastfeeding in public. People who moan about these things I would guess are miserable in general.

I think it's important though not to let a minority of people cloud your judgement of the majority, as I said above. I think the majority of people in the U.K. accept that children are part of society, that we ourselves were once children and that it takes a village and all that.
We're just quite moan-ey as a country unfortunately!

But I guess that's the fault of their lazy parents for not teaching them basic biology 😆

But I guess that's the fault of their lazy parents for not teaching them basic biology 😆

Yes, anyone would think they jumped from their mothers womb and morphed into a fully grown adult, the embodiment of perfection and free from any faults then go on to live their lives in perfect silence, with only other grown ups surrounding them, who all know how to follow the same book of rules for the child-free (that they have themselves invented) so they can live in a clean, quiet bubble of tranquility without any...shudder.....children to ruin the peace! Let's just miss out the "child" phase altogether - it'd be so much easier that way! (Joyless too, but never mind that!)

Not the point. The point is people's attitudes, Kids= inconvenience. Why?
You've been told over and over 25 pages!!

Because sadly, although some kids are well-behaved in all circumstances, and well-behaved doesn't mean quiet and still at all time, but reasonably calm, not running around, unaware of their surroundings, not screaming, shouting, screeching, many are and this is becoming more and more common, almost every you go.

It's not the kids I avoid, it's their lazy, entitled parents who let them get on with being annoying and disruptive.

Let's just miss out the "child" phase altogether - it'd be so much easier that way! (Joyless too, but never mind that!)
Except very few adults expect the children to behave as you are describing. There is a massive gap between a child who is left constantly upset and frustrated for not being let to be themselves, and a child who is told off when acting like a brat.

Because sadly, although some kids are well-behaved in all circumstances, and well-behaved doesn't mean quiet and still at all time, but reasonably calm, not running around, unaware of their surroundings, not screaming, shouting, screeching, many are and this is becoming more and more common, almost every you go

Where do you live? The only place I have ever encountered this kind of behaviour from children is in a soft play centre or at a child's party. I've seen it from adults too though: at football matches, in nightclubs, concerts etc. Adults also make a LOT of noise in our local favourite Italian restaurant (usually bc everyone's having a good time and has had a bit to drink).
But kids constantly running amok everywhere, screaming and screeching? I eat out/go out in public regularly, have raised dcs of my own (so have visited lots of places that welcome children) and have honestly never seen this behaviour apart from as I said, in soft play centres etc. Could you be slightly exaggerating perhaps?

I too would be interested in why you say China was most child-friendly place you lived. I live in Hong Kong and agree it’s more child-friendly than the U.K. I’m curious if your reasons are the same as mine.

but reasonably calm, not running around, unaware of their surroundings, not screaming, shouting, screeching, many are and this is becoming more and more common, almost every you go.

Where do you live that this is normal outside of a playground etc? I presume the adults in the area behave similarly?

This thread has made the news 😂 came up on my facebook feed.

@PrivateHall I doubt it has much to do with visitors. We didn't have any visitors other than an utterly useless MW after DD was born (no local family, commuters so colleagues not local), I BF round the clock for days and ended up dropping the baby thru exhaustion. Utterly useless MW ignored my concerns about the constant feeding, told me to carry on EBFing and baby ended up readmitted seriously ill with dehydration.

I'd have loved some visitors to come round and hold the baby so I could have a break.

It may have nothing to do with the space the child takes up but more that the restaurant does not welcome the noise and disruption caused by young children.

Or the restaurant wishes to provide a particular ambience and wants its customers to enjoy it. The type of restaurant with candles and flowers on the tables for example.

The type of restaurant with candles and flowers on the tables for example.

I've been to a fair few of these restaurants in the evening. I don't think I've ever seen a dc screaming running around in one whilst their parents make sweet talk to each other in the soft candlelight. Perhaps there isn't much choice where you live.