Why is UK so child unfriendly?

[bezabez]

Hi! I am foreign person living in the UK for the past 15 years.

I have noticed that the attitudes towards children are really strange in this country. Generally kids aren't accepted to be kids. They are expected to be quiet (ish) if out and about eg in a restaurant or a cafe, women don't breastfeed often in public (UK has the lowest rate of breastfeeding in the world) and they are expected 'to do as you're told' - that's a weird expression in itself tbh and to behave and never show a wild side. If on a train or other public spaces people tend not to engage with them even with babies (where I'm from there would be talking and smiling and general admirations) or tthey make faces, huffing and puffing etc if the children 'misbehave'.

Also parents complain A LOT about having children, sometimes as a form of a banter as these are socially acceptable jokes. Especially during the holidays.

On top of that there aren't many affordable childcare options or things like holiday camps and clubs (I know they exist in bigger cities sometimes but it isn't the same).

Overall it's no place for young people!

Does it come from the Victorian 'kids are to be seen not heard' thing?

Again where I'm from kids are celebrated as the future here they are mostly treated as inconvenience.

@TedMullins

One experience of people in a restaurant doesn’t mean the entire country is child unfriendly. Did the restaurant have a no children after a certain time policy? I don’t think that being a child friendly society in general means that children should never be excluded - some people want childfree evenings or venues or even holidays - childfree resorts exist in other European countries. I also think, as an aside, that as a society we should be encouraging equal parenting and active involvement of fathers instead of falling back on the default that women do all/most of the caring. That’s an expectation that often harms women.

@TedMullins

If you look back at my post you’ll see I started phoning ahead and plenty of places (when asked) didn’t want breast fed, sling carried babies. Babies like this tend to be inoffensive and don’t usually inconvenience anyone apart from their mothers, but I suspect lots of people don’t know this as we as a society don’t have many around. The restaurant (and the others I phoned) did not advertise themselves as child free, but they still didn’t want them. And I think it’s clear on this thread that many people think children should only go to family friendly places that supply crayons and high chairs, even if the children need neither.

And although I tend to agree with you generally about fathers needing to take equal responsibility, breastfed babies need to be with their mothers almost all the time. If a baby can’t go in, the mother can’t. Most people’s answer to this is introduce a bottle, but no one sees the connection between this and women giving up breastfeeding.

Who would want noisy children running round a restaurant, I really don’t think that’s acceptable in any country including the U.K.

@karmakameleon perfectly possibly and very sensible to express as well as breastfeed. This meant my husband could feed the baby so I could go out. Important for him to have a close bond and the breastfeeding mother not take over.

@bezabez You have made more than one statement saying that the UK is one of the worst places in the world for breastfeeding and one of the least happy places in the world. These are totally untrue. Look them up.

@Hellotoallmyfans

Am I missing something? Of course you expect to watch a show at the theatre in complete and utter silence. That’s what I would expect too.

I don't know, do you usually miss things? If so, maybe there's a problem.

You would actually expect, in a theatre of around 700 people, including children, to sit for two hours in complete and utter silence?

If so, I cannot do anything but feel aghast at your entitlement and a bit sorry for you too...

I think the only entitlement on show here are those who think it’s fine to eat crisps and talk at the theatre, no matter their age. The theatre is not your living room at home.

@Jangle33

Expressing is difficult and often impossible. The practical reality is that most introduce a bottle of formula. And anyway, breastfeeding is hard. It’s hard to establish and once established, mothers don’t get much of a break. Why would people want to make that harder for women who do want to breastfeed, especially when it’s no inconvenience to them?

@CBroads

I just think people on the UK are more considerate. Who wants to go out for a meal and listen to other people's screaming kids? It's basic etiquette.

Oh yeah hang on let me just grab my crystal ball so I can plan my life a round other people's kids, idiot.

You could be In the most prestigious restaurant around, there is still a possibility of kids being there. What are we supposed to do? Not go out because people choose to not control their children while in close proximity to others ? It's rude.

[quote ChateauMargaux]@bezabez You have made more than one statement saying that the UK is one of the worst places in the world for breastfeeding and one of the least happy places in the world. These are totally untrue. Look them up.[/quote]
Not quite.

I have said that UK has lowest (one of the lowest) rates of BF in the world and that happiness surveys show that British kids are the least happy (according to themselves). Data for these is widely available, it isn't just my saying so.
Please look them up.

@ofwarren well the thread is not talking about abuse and absolute illegal acts taking place against children.

But on a day to day level we are not a child friendly country. Most of the comments on here verify why... talking about controlling children, children been quiet etc. I am UK born and bred, and in this respect we are not child friendly compared to other cultures that actually value children, clearly not the ones you are referring to, which tbh is going off on a tangent on the point OP is making.

If you look back at my post you’ll see I started phoning ahead and plenty of places (when asked) didn’t want breast fed, sling carried babies. Babies like this tend to be inoffensive and don’t usually inconvenience anyone apart from their mothers

Did you describe the baby as 'breastfed, sling carried' to the restaurants?! If so I really wouldn't have wanted to give you a table either, as you sound like you're going to be a smug nightmare who would think the baby was 'just gurgling sweetly' as they screamed the place down. And I have a six month old (my second) who has been in a pram about four times ever, so much is my devotion to the sling, and has had even fewer bottles (mostly because he hates them) - but I'd never suggest that as a 'breastfed, sling carried baby' he was some sort of superior breed who would never annoy others! He actually is a very easygoing thing (though I wouldn't bet others' evenings on him staying quiet) but his brother, also breastfed and sling carried, knew how to cause a scene as a baby...

@daisypond

It was the sheer entitled attitude of this woman to think she should be able to sit and watch a show IN COMPLETE AND UTTER SILENCE that I really found unbelievable.

Am I missing something? Of course you expect to watch a show at the theatre in complete and utter silence. That’s what I would expect too.

I expect to watch a play in silence too, unless it's a pantomime or similar.

breast fed, sling carried babies.

I love this phrase . It has a very superior ring to it! Sort of like organic, corn-fed chicken.

Babies like this tend to be inoffensive and don’t usually inconvenience anyone apart from their mothers

Of course a breast-fed sling-carried baby is an entirely different proposition to a bottle-fed, buggy-transported horror. How silly of restaurants not to realise the distinction!

I've lived in 7 different countries, all over the world, and spent a lot of time in others.
As a parent.

Hands down worst Switzerland.
Hands down best China.

UK is somewhere in the middle.
My opinion is for sure different from others but it's my experience.
I have lots of kids and I absolutely expect them to be well-behaved in restaurants and theatres etc. it's learning basic respect for others.
I also absolutely expect to be able to breastfeed in public without issue. In UK I have.
I don't think UK attitudes indicate a lack of liking for kids just a lack of interest and frankly this makes sense. I am not interested in other people's kids either!

@Alonelonelylonersbadidea

I've lived in 7 different countries, all over the world, and spent a lot of time in others. As a parent.

Hands down worst Switzerland.
Hands down best China.

UK is somewhere in the middle.
My opinion is for sure different from others but it's my experience.
I have lots of kids and I absolutely expect them to be well-behaved in restaurants and theatres etc. it's learning basic respect for others.
I also absolutely expect to be able to breastfeed in public without issue. In UK I have.
I don't think UK attitudes indicate a lack of liking for kids just a lack of interest and frankly this makes sense. I am not interested in other people's kids either!

Just out of interest, what makes you say China was the best? I know nothing of their culture.

@Goldbar

breast fed, sling carried babies.

I love this phrase . It has a very superior ring to it! Sort of like organic, corn-fed chicken.

Babies like this tend to be inoffensive and don’t usually inconvenience anyone apart from their mothers

Of course a breast-fed sling-carried baby is an entirely different proposition to a bottle-fed, buggy-transported horror. How silly of restaurants not to realise the distinction!

There’s nothing superior about it. They just take up next to no space and rarely make a murmur. When they do, they are quick to settle.

I’ve also had a formula fed baby in a pram (my last couldn’t breastfeed and I couldn’t carry him) and I can see why he wouldn’t be easy to accommodate in a restaurant and why his presence might impact others.

What happens if you put a formula fed baby in a sling? Do they spontaneously combust?

They just take up next to no space and rarely make a murmur

Bwahahaha. I wish someone had told my breast fed sling carried daughter that she should barely make a murmur! I freaking wish.

Of course a breast-fed sling-carried baby is an entirely different proposition to a bottle-fed, buggy-transported horror. How silly of restaurants not to realise the distinction!

Well, there's a big difference in the amount of stuff they come with. A buggy takes up a lot of space.

For me, no matter whether you are an adult or child, in public areas everyone should be respectful of each other. So behaving in restaurants or on trains should be done by all.
As another poster said, parks are great for letting children run wild, as are soft play areas etc.

OP you need to remember not everyone wants to coo over your baby, or talk to your children. I don't do do this in the UK or any other country. They are you're children that you chose to have, no one else is obliged to interact with them or put up with their noise when trying to travel or dine out anywhere

Jangle33, so you call the perfectly natural and temporary stage in a babies life when it can get all its food from one source, it's mother, - 'the mother taking over'? Blimey, and there was I thinking I was just looking after my kids, but no, I was taking over

Bottle-fed babies can also be carried in slings and mine were very quick to settle with a bottle. Much quicker than some of my friends breast-fed babies. Not all but I didn't see a correlation between feeding method and how quickly hungry babies settled.

breast fed, sling carried babies.

I love this phrase . It has a very superior ring to it! Sort of like organic, corn-fed chicken.

What on earth is superior about a bf baby in a sling? Why has this annoyed you?

I always took my baby in a carrier if we were going out to eat, less crap to take up space.

It was the "breast-fed, sling-carried" in conjunction with the "inoffensive" . Babies are capable of being a disturbance however they are fed and carried.

@HalzTangz

For me, no matter whether you are an adult or child, in public areas everyone should be respectful of each other. So behaving in restaurants or on trains should be done by all. As another poster said, parks are great for letting children run wild, as are soft play areas etc.

OP you need to remember not everyone wants to coo over your baby, or talk to your children. I don't do do this in the UK or any other country. They are you're children that you chose to have, no one else is obliged to interact with them or put up with their noise when trying to travel or dine out anywhere

The point of this thread is really Why are children in the UK treated by adults (not all adults it is a generalisation) as an inconvenience and not as a treasure? All kids, any kids. Not mine personally, all of them.

Nobody answered this or made a valid point. People focus on behaviour in restaurants or how many soft plays/ play parks there are. Further proving my point that it may be a child centric country where facilities are provided as a way to separate children from adults which isn't child friendly, it is adult friendly.

Not the point. The point is people's attitudes, Kids= inconvenience. Why?

It was the "breast-fed, sling-carried" in conjunction with the "inoffensive" . Babies are capable of being a disturbance however they are fed and carried.

But in a carrier of some sort they tend to take up far less space. There are often threads about the size of buggies or "taking up the coffee shop with huge buggies" etc hence why I would always use a carrier. Feeding doesn't matter but I'm not sure why bf triggered you.