Why is UK so child unfriendly?

[bezabez]

Hi! I am foreign person living in the UK for the past 15 years.

I have noticed that the attitudes towards children are really strange in this country. Generally kids aren't accepted to be kids. They are expected to be quiet (ish) if out and about eg in a restaurant or a cafe, women don't breastfeed often in public (UK has the lowest rate of breastfeeding in the world) and they are expected 'to do as you're told' - that's a weird expression in itself tbh and to behave and never show a wild side. If on a train or other public spaces people tend not to engage with them even with babies (where I'm from there would be talking and smiling and general admirations) or tthey make faces, huffing and puffing etc if the children 'misbehave'.

Also parents complain A LOT about having children, sometimes as a form of a banter as these are socially acceptable jokes. Especially during the holidays.

On top of that there aren't many affordable childcare options or things like holiday camps and clubs (I know they exist in bigger cities sometimes but it isn't the same).

Overall it's no place for young people!

Does it come from the Victorian 'kids are to be seen not heard' thing?

Again where I'm from kids are celebrated as the future here they are mostly treated as inconvenience.

I just think people on the UK are more considerate. Who wants to go out for a meal and listen to other people's screaming kids? It's basic etiquette.

As a PP has commented, I suspect that many of these 'child celebrating' countries are essentially patriarchal and attribute little worth to a women unless she is a wife and mother. I don't particularly want to be part of that kind of society if I'm honest.

The UK is also a patriarchy though. Limiting where children can go/are welcome limits where mothers/women can go because women do most of the caring. The cultures I am familiar with where children are just human beings who can go everywhere aren’t perfect but as a mother of young children my life was far less limited than it was here.

You only have to read some of the threads on here, people moaning about hearing children playing in their gardens before 9am, chalking on pavements etc. All totally harmless but frowned on.

I know what you mean OP.

In the UK, people would call social services if you are out with your children in the supermarket past 7pm (lighthearted). In Spain, it is common for families to be out walking/in restaurants at 10.30pm.

One experience of people in a restaurant doesn’t mean the entire country is child unfriendly. Did the restaurant have a no children after a certain time policy? I don’t think that being a child friendly society in general means that children should never be excluded - some people want childfree evenings or venues or even holidays - childfree resorts exist in other European countries. I also think, as an aside, that as a society we should be encouraging equal parenting and active involvement of fathers instead of falling back on the default that women do all/most of the caring. That’s an expectation that often harms women.

@CBroads

I just think people on the UK are more considerate. Who wants to go out for a meal and listen to other people's screaming kids? It's basic etiquette.

Then fucking go to a restaurant where it's unlikely there will be 'screaming kids.' Tbh it's only on MN that restaurants are apparently full of screaming children, I've worked in enough to know it's not generally the case.

It isn’t. Your argument that people will want interaction with these children when older is odd. I don’t expect random people to look after me in my old age unless they are being paid, either by me or through taxes I have paid. The comparison with the elderly is not comparable either. I have spent time in Europe and I think that the nuclear family is less of a thing there so the load is shared however it fails to acknowledge that people actively choose to have children and take on that responsibility - they could choose not to have children if they don’t want the responsibility

[quote bezabez]@FrippEnos

Different points came up through the course of this conversation hence the replies given at the time. However my original post is about my lack of understanding why children are such an inconvenience in this country compared to other European ones even to people who choose to have them.

Society in the UK is not child friendly IMO. It is the mindset and replies stating that there are plenty of soft plays and high chairs around so it must be child friendly really prove my point!

[/quote]
@bezabez

But you apparently haven't listen to the replies unless they back you up or prove your point.

As I have said part of this "inconvenience" is down to how some parents respond/react when their child is told off by someone else.

On here we regularly see an entitlement of parents that their children should be able to do as they please with minimal parenting and do things that cause others to respond in the way that you are suggesting because telling other parents' children off is seen as bad.

If you want society to change in the way that you perceive children are seen then you must also be prepared to allow society a bigger part in bringing up the children and that means accepting that others can tell your child off.

I agree with you Op. I nearly had a fight with a (horrible) woman at the theatre a few weeks ago as she told my dd8 off for rustling a crisp packet. The fact that she wasn't actually eating crisps and it was the people sat behind us making a few noises was irrelevant. It was the sheer entitled attitude of this woman to think she should be able to sit and watch a show IN COMPLETE AND UTTER SILENCE that I really found unbelievable. She clearly didn't think that children should be allowed in the theatre and felt it was her right to turn around and chastise my - completely innocent - child. I honestly wanted to knock her block off. Ultimately I just pitied her though, her face looked like a bag of pickled walnuts!
I think there are a lot of people like that woman in this country, but fortunately they are in the minority.

It was the sheer entitled attitude of this woman to think she should be able to sit and watch a show IN COMPLETE AND UTTER SILENCE that I really found unbelievable.

Am I missing something? Of course you expect to watch a show at the theatre in complete and utter silence. That’s what I would expect too.

Am I missing something? Of course you expect to watch a show at the theatre in complete and utter silence. That’s what I would expect too.

I don't know, do you usually miss things? If so, maybe there's a problem.

You would actually expect, in a theatre of around 700 people, including children, to sit for two hours in complete and utter silence?

If so, I cannot do anything but feel aghast at your entitlement and a bit sorry for you too...

I agree - theatre tickets aren’t cheap. You don’t go to listen to crisp packets being rustled.

Maybe you should complain to the theatre who sell them then and insist it becomes a snack-free zone?
Ironically the people who were rustling the crisp packets were adults!

Hellotoallmyfans

Surely it depends on what you are going to watch.

**pickled walnut face woman didn't want to tell off the adults sat behind us though (even when they admitted it was them and not my dd) - she just wanted to have a bash at a little kid coz she clearly hates children and was pissed off that the theatre wasn't a child-free zone.

It was the sheer entitled attitude of this woman to think she should be able to sit and watch a show IN COMPLETE AND UTTER SILENCE that I really found unbelievable.

Most people I know eat before the show, or in the interval, or eat something quiet. It can be extremely irritating to pay for expensive tickets to a show and miss what is being said on stage because of rude people making a noise.

Ultimately I just pitied her though, her face looked like a bag of pickled walnuts!

And that tells me all I need to know about you.

Give them an inch and they take a mile and make life a misery for everyone. It’s not that the British hate kids, they just like well behaved ones. Ones that don’t distract or upset anybody else’s existence.

Yet, that seemingly doesn’t go as much for the adults who distract and upset other people’s existence despite being of ages where they should know better.

I’ve lived in the UK all my life op and unfortunately I absolutely agree. It’s not a particularly child friendly place and not a very supportive place to raise children. The difference in how children are treated in places I’ve travelled to (Australia, a lot of Europe and North Africa) is stark.

BS.

I think you’re mistaken. It’s perfectly child friendly. Maybe, just maybe, a part of this is people perhaps pushing back on poorly behaved children?

Its called teaching children manners and to respect those around them. They're not living in the wild. YABU.

@marmaladehound

Totally see your point. It often makes me sad tbh when I see people's reaction to children. It certainly not everyone, but as a society we are certainly one of the more child unfriendly countries in Europe and the probably the world. I love going to Mediterranean countries where kids are actually enjoyed by people and welcomed.

On of the most child unfriendly in the world? Dont talk bollocks. Ever heard of child marriage, corporal punishment, age of consent being lower than 16, child labour and so on? There are so many places in the world where children's lives are not important. You would get social services at your door if you leave a red mark after smacking your child here (rightly so).

I'm not convinced BFing rates are that low here - they discontinued collecting the stats. I BF to 3.5 years but that wouldn't appear in any kind of official stats other than postnatal discharge, and if anyone did anything with my 6 week check notes? There's loads of support for BFing - in my area it's the only thing still running for babies - when they closed the universal offer for children's centres several years ago the only thing still available to all families was BFing support (which isn't great if you're combi-feeding and need support ). At my work, I know that all but one of the approx 10 babies born in the last six years have been BF for several years - but I only know that because people have mentioned it in the staff room, they won't appear in stats.

The way BFing is promoted is a problem. I was told it was a lovely snuggly bonding experience, free, all women could do it, would stop me getting cancer and my baby a myriad of other things. The reality didn't at all match up - like being in hell with only me about to feed the baby, made my baby and me seriously ill as it turned out not all women can make enough milk, stopped us bonding as I hated BFing so much, cost double the cost of formula and those benefits turned out to have been massively bigged up.

Bizarrely BFing promotion did include stuff about being able to BF in public and set me up to expect to encounter problems with that - but no one has ever batted an eyelid about it, and I've BF all over the place - shops, cafes, public transport, even a council meeting!

On of the most child unfriendly in the world? Dont talk bollocks.
Ever heard of child marriage, corporal punishment, age of consent being lower than 16, child labour and so on?
There are so many places in the world where children's lives are not important.
You would get social services at your door if you leave a red mark after smacking your child here (rightly so).

Exactly and @Blueberry40 you have named the top 2 countries/ areas for child abuse there plus parts of Europe- Portugal having a very high rate of DV, child abuse and infanticide.