Why is UK so child unfriendly?

[bezabez]

Hi! I am foreign person living in the UK for the past 15 years.

I have noticed that the attitudes towards children are really strange in this country. Generally kids aren't accepted to be kids. They are expected to be quiet (ish) if out and about eg in a restaurant or a cafe, women don't breastfeed often in public (UK has the lowest rate of breastfeeding in the world) and they are expected 'to do as you're told' - that's a weird expression in itself tbh and to behave and never show a wild side. If on a train or other public spaces people tend not to engage with them even with babies (where I'm from there would be talking and smiling and general admirations) or tthey make faces, huffing and puffing etc if the children 'misbehave'.

Also parents complain A LOT about having children, sometimes as a form of a banter as these are socially acceptable jokes. Especially during the holidays.

On top of that there aren't many affordable childcare options or things like holiday camps and clubs (I know they exist in bigger cities sometimes but it isn't the same).

Overall it's no place for young people!

Does it come from the Victorian 'kids are to be seen not heard' thing?

Again where I'm from kids are celebrated as the future here they are mostly treated as inconvenience.

Never said I could. What I meant is that I am not obliged to show interest in other people’s children.

Nobody is making you show an interest in other people’s children. But if you want to go out in public, you have to interact with other people, and some of those people may be children. That’s the deal with being in public.

I think we have to distinguish between children and toddlers here, children learn at school acceptable behaviour and adults have a right to expect that. Toddlers on the other hand are unpredictable and still learning i think on the whole people understand that and make allowances.

@TedMullins
But why not? This is what I am trying to understand. It is normal and expected in other countries but not in the UK. If society is to function well surely everyone needs to chip in.

Why do British people think that children are parents problem? And the word 'problem' being very much the default position?

It is in everyone's best interest to ensure that the next generation flourish just as the generation before and before and before etc.

UK isn't child friendly. It feels like children exist here because it isn't possible to be adults straight away.

Gosh OP
Also agree with you so completely. Not from the UK, but lived here since I was a teen. With my parents culture there is a lot of focus on respect for elders from kids, but yes, kids are not treated as a massive inconvenience.

And yes yes totally agree to the point about dogs. I like dogs; we have a dog, but I swear people care more about dogs than they do about kids here: a puppy would definitely attract more attention than a baby!

I'm confused are @TedMullins & @CounsellorTroi the same poster?

I still don't know what OP meant by "celebrating" children.

One thing though, while we're all sharing anecdata, in my experience the more children are put on a pedestal, the more patriarchal the society that does it. Women there are appreciated as mothers and wives mostly, not in their own right, as a person.

I think the uk being labelled as 'unfriendly' for children is such a sweeping generalisation. I think it really depends on where you live in the uk.

We used to live in London and I found no-one was friendly at all but we relocated and people are lovely. There is loads to do for children and people are generally willing to help e.g once I was struggling to get my buggy out of the door and someone offered to help. Also once a seagull pinched my toddler's treat and a random lady offered to buy him a new one.

bezabez

How do you expect to teach without some form of control?
Whether that control is bribery or sanctions it is still a form of control.

As to your point about no-one helping.
Their is a phrase 'It takes a village' some people still use it, but its hard for the village to teach a child when the parent only wants the village to be their for the good times.

Around the globe where you say children are more tolerated/respected it is also because the children know that the "village" can chastise them without the parents exploding in to rage at the "village"

[quote bezabez]@TedMullins
But why not? This is what I am trying to understand. It is normal and expected in other countries but not in the UK. If society is to function well surely everyone needs to chip in.

Why do British people think that children are parents problem? And the word 'problem' being very much the default position?

It is in everyone's best interest to ensure that the next generation flourish just as the generation before and before and before etc.

UK isn't child friendly. It feels like children exist here because it isn't possible to be adults straight away.
[/quote]
I find it really bizarre you think I should be actively going out of my way to interact with stranger’s children. Why would I? I find children annoying in the main and don’t enjoy their company and that’s why I’ve chosen not to have any. If other people have chosen to have them, how is that anything to do with me? Why is it my concern/responsibility/whatever you want to call it? Like I said, I get children come up to ask if they can pet my dog fairly often. I’m polite to them, talk to them about the dog, tell them how to pet him etc. I don’t recoil in disgust and tell them to go away but neither do I try to manufacture interactions with them - tbh, I feel like I’d look like a bit of a weirdo if I started randomly approaching children I didn’t know.

I volunteer for local community causes including cooking at a food bank, donating clothes to small organisations that distribute them to people in need etc. Indirectly, this might be helping some disadvantaged children by feeding and clothing them/their parents. I donate money to causes I believe in. I try and do my bit for society but just like I don’t expect other dog owners to control my dog if we go out, I don’t see how other people’s children are anything to do with me.

@TedMullins

' I don’t see how other people’s children are anything to do with me.'

Why are you on Mumsnet then?

[quote bezabez]@TedMullins

' I don’t see how other people’s children are anything to do with me.'

Why are you on Mumsnet then?[/quote]
BINGO! This question has been done to death. There are plenty of non-child related topics on here.

bezabez

You have that right yes but don't be surprised if these children choose not to interact with you in the future (when you are elderly and need looking after).
You reap what you sow...

the strawman has raised its head.

Why do British people think that children are parents problem? And the word 'problem' being very much the default position?

See my point above. Many parents (go look at various threads on here ) will act in an adverse manner if someone else tells their child off.

To quote you
You reap what you sow...

@TedMullins

Yet you have chosen to comment extensively on a child related topic in a thread with the word child in its title.

^In my circle of friends those that gave up breastfeeding did so because they didn’t want to do night feeds and/or was convinced (by others experience) that baby would sleep better being bottle fed.

In my circle, those of us who gave up had spent upwards of 15 hours a day feeding their child. They had never been engorged, and never had a satisfied baby. Don't assume that everyone had a choice.

Where have you been to in the uk and what sorts of restaurants do you go to? I dont recognise any of what you're saying. I'm a londoner. Think it's great for kids.

[quote bezabez]@TedMullins

Yet you have chosen to comment extensively on a child related topic in a thread with the word child in its title. [/quote]
Didn’t realise I couldn’t have opinions on anything related to children! Plenty of people WITH children disagree with you on this thread. I’m perfectly entitled to express an opinion that it’s bonkers for you to expect members of the public to go around chatting to random kids. Most people probably respond politely if kids approach them as I do. I really don’t know what more you want people to do or why you think they should?

@FrippEnos

Different points came up through the course of this conversation hence the replies given at the time. However my original post is about my lack of understanding why children are such an inconvenience in this country compared to other European ones even to people who choose to have them.

Society in the UK is not child friendly IMO. It is the mindset and replies stating that there are plenty of soft plays and high chairs around so it must be child friendly really prove my point!

See, I don't believe the UK is that 'child unfriendly'. I have no issue with the way children are treated here - if I did, I'd move elsewhere.

I would hate to have random strangers 'helping' me with my DC, or bearing them away in restaurants to show them off to other staff members (why?), or have people 'celebrating' them (again, how, and why?). So I choose not to live in those countries where that kind of behaviour is the norm. It would stress the hell out of me and I'm not sure it would do the DC much good, either. As a PP has commented, I suspect that many of these 'child celebrating' countries are essentially patriarchal and attribute little worth to a women unless she is a wife and mother. I don't particularly want to be part of that kind of society if I'm honest.

Of course children should be loved and wanted and valued but there is no need for them to be made to feel that the world revolves around them.

I breast fed my ds until 18 months. His father was appalled, refused to be anywhere near me if I did it in public and objected when I fed ds in my own sitting room in front of his 24yo daughter. And I was kicked out of the local coffee shop despite being very discreet & well covered. So no, the U.K. is not supportive..
Now I'm a single mum, people often sympathise about how tough it must be which I find weird. I love being with my son.

@TedMullins
Of course you are entitled to have an opinion however it was you who has written 'I don’t see how other people’s children are anything to do with me.'

[quote bezabez]@TedMullins

' I don’t see how other people’s children are anything to do with me.'

Why are you on Mumsnet then?[/quote]
Not again!

[quote bezabez]@TedMullins
Of course you are entitled to have an opinion however it was you who has written 'I don’t see how other people’s children are anything to do with me.'[/quote]
….and? I don’t! They’re not! But I don’t agree the U.K. is “child unfriendly”. Children are allowed pretty much everywhere except late night bars and clubs.

I don’t know where you live OP but that’s not the UK I recognise, I regularly see women breastfeeding in public and do so myself, I’ve never had anything but a positive reaction to it. Strangers are always interacting with my kids and I see a lot of kids in restaurants and cafes, there’s loads of kids menus and if there isn’t then places will happily make special smaller portions for children.

I have lived in another European country and I actually found kids were more likely to be farmed off to a nanny or club there than here.

Totally see your point. It often makes me sad tbh when I see people's reaction to children. It certainly not everyone, but as a society we are certainly one of the more child unfriendly countries in Europe and the probably the world. I love going to Mediterranean countries where kids are actually enjoyed by people and welcomed.

But I don’t agree the U.K. is “child unfriendly”. Children are allowed pretty much everywhere except late night bars and clubs.

This just isn’t true. Early on on the thread I spoke about taking my breastfed, sling carried baby to a restaurant in an evening and being made to feel unwelcome. A couple of people commented that he shouldn’t have been there. But then on the other hand people are saying that babies and children are welcome practically everywhere. Both things can’t be true.