Why is UK so child unfriendly?

[bezabez]

Hi! I am foreign person living in the UK for the past 15 years.

I have noticed that the attitudes towards children are really strange in this country. Generally kids aren't accepted to be kids. They are expected to be quiet (ish) if out and about eg in a restaurant or a cafe, women don't breastfeed often in public (UK has the lowest rate of breastfeeding in the world) and they are expected 'to do as you're told' - that's a weird expression in itself tbh and to behave and never show a wild side. If on a train or other public spaces people tend not to engage with them even with babies (where I'm from there would be talking and smiling and general admirations) or tthey make faces, huffing and puffing etc if the children 'misbehave'.

Also parents complain A LOT about having children, sometimes as a form of a banter as these are socially acceptable jokes. Especially during the holidays.

On top of that there aren't many affordable childcare options or things like holiday camps and clubs (I know they exist in bigger cities sometimes but it isn't the same).

Overall it's no place for young people!

Does it come from the Victorian 'kids are to be seen not heard' thing?

Again where I'm from kids are celebrated as the future here they are mostly treated as inconvenience.

Pre-Covid we ate in all sorts of places.

bezabez@ ok, but we all have to live by societies rules, it sounds like if you had your way children would be able to do whatever they want regardless.

But i think everyone is missing the point. This isn't about uk children going abroad and then being allowed out to be " free" and do what the sod they want. This is about bringing children up WITH adults and not having to really control behaviour. Yes there is playing here at 9/10 am, but its play, not outright destructive behaviour.
As for high chairs... well we dont use them!! It either in a pram, or learn to sit at a table. We dont mind if they walk around, because THAT is the learning moment- you sit on a chair at a restaurant. Its a mindset, and the UK doesn't have it.

Its pretty obvious that no one can control a child who is upset and crying but if it was very loud and prolonged I would take my DC out.

Mainly so we dont disturb others but also so I could deal with the situation in a less public place .
You seem to be jumping on language such as control in a very negative way Op.
Did you have controlling parents Op?

Yes if I had an upset child howling for whatever reason I would take control of the situation as Im their parent and an adult.
Move to a space outside and allow it to pass.
Sometimes children do have to do as they are told for their own safety.
Busy road.
Eg hold my hand or you go in the buggy.
Child can feel however they like about that but it wouldnt change that they had to hold my hand.

Icicle - where did you move to if you don’t mind me asking? intrigued
In a friendly way.

@Ickle37 *

This is the essence really! Why is it okay to CONTROL another human being?
They aren't robots or dogs ( I presume it would be okay for a dog to bark since it doesn't know any better but a child is to be controlled...)
Surely guided, taught and encouraged should be the way, no?

Am I reading this right ? Of course young children need to be controlled sometimes. If your child is biting or hitting other children, you can do the guiding and teaching but the first thing you need to do is get them under control and not hurting others. Similarly for running amok in public places or alongside the road.

When my DC was younger, I remember playing at softplay and an older boy (around 3 or 4) jumped on my DC and started pushing and hitting them. It was a shock for my DC, but the mother was on her child like a shot, pulling him off and disciplining him. I would have been very unimpressed if she'd stood there helplessly saying, "We don't hit, it's not nice" rather than physically intervening to control him.

[quote RamblingJenny]@Ickle37* [/quote]
In a lovely part of South West Europe 😉. Not telling the world- we dont need you all here with your badly behaved children!! Lol.
Currently at a cafe with my dd(3) who is talking to as many old people as possible, several bought the " English " toddler presents tonight. All will tell her she is gorgeous but also tell her to shush if she gets too much. " pearl clutch" she is up passed 7pm!!! 😂😂😂

@Goldbar

This is the essence really! Why is it okay to CONTROL another human being? They aren't robots or dogs ( I presume it would be okay for a dog to bark since it doesn't know any better but a child is to be controlled...) Surely guided, taught and encouraged should be the way, no?

Am I reading this right ? Of course young children need to be controlled sometimes. If your child is biting or hitting other children, you can do the guiding and teaching but the first thing you need to do is get them under control and not hurting others. Similarly for running amok in public places or alongside the road.

When my DC was younger, I remember playing at softplay and an older boy (around 3 or 4) jumped on my DC and started pushing and hitting them. It was a shock for my DC, but the mother was on her child like a shot, pulling him off and disciplining him. I would have been very unimpressed if she'd stood there helplessly saying, "We don't hit, it's not nice" rather than physically intervening to control him.

This is the point!! Europeans dont have soft play or basically what we call " pits of infection and bad behaviour " , we have LIFE and kids are welcome. Strangely , we dont have biters...

Mother to a very, very wild toddler (21 months) who I BF whenever he fancies which generally means every 0.4seconds wherever we are if he is, tired, hungry, thirsy, hurt, happy, excited .... yeah you get it.

Most people think I'm a push over as I generally put him having a good time above all else and I cater for him 98% of the time. I tow the line in restaurants though because he should behave and not disturb others. He's mostly bribed with snacks & screen time and I'm open to him running off steam outside between courses but it's a no shrieking zone.

Perhaps I'm European in parenting attitude and not just soft... sounds great.

So there are no European children who bite, hit, push, bully or are violent to other kids ? This is purely a British problem?

Who wants loud, noisy children around them?

European countries seem to let children do what they like, e.g. crawl about at 10pm, when bed three hours earlier would have been so much better for them. This is not admirable but just lazy parenting.

Long may UK attitude remain- who wants children in pubs and restaurants- other than precious prissy parents?

European countries seem to let children do what they like, e.g. crawl about at 10pm, when bed three hours earlier would have been so much better for them. This is not admirable but just lazy parenting.

Why do you think you know better then all those parents in other countries?

@Daphnise

Who wants loud, noisy children around them?

European countries seem to let children do what they like, e.g. crawl about at 10pm, when bed three hours earlier would have been so much better for them. This is not admirable but just lazy parenting.

Long may UK attitude remain- who wants children in pubs and restaurants- other than precious prissy parents?

And the OPs point is beautifully proven. There are a lot of people in the UK who dislike children and don’t believe the are fully human.

Surely it really depends what the situation is. Yes, I would help an old person if they fell over in the street. If I saw a child about to run into the road or something, I’d stop them, or if I saw a child alone and crying in public I’d try and get them back to their parent. But if I saw a parent trying to wrangle several badly behaved disobedient children, no, I’d leave them to it. That’s their job, and their kids, it’s not an emergency.

This. People choose to have kids. People do not choose to become old.

I agree OP. Always felt at home in the UK then had a massive culture shock when my first dc was born. I felt nervous all the time when I went out with her. Felt a huge relief when I went back to my home country and was free to take them to restaurants cafes etc without worrying. If they started crying, people would try and help to distract them rather than complain, it’s lovely.

@Daphnise

Who wants loud, noisy children around them?

European countries seem to let children do what they like, e.g. crawl about at 10pm, when bed three hours earlier would have been so much better for them. This is not admirable but just lazy parenting.

Long may UK attitude remain- who wants children in pubs and restaurants- other than precious prissy parents?

😂😂😂.

And the OPs point is beautifully proven. There are a lot of people in the UK who dislike children and don’t believe the are fully human

I don’t dislike children. I do believe I have a right not to interact with children ifI don’t want to at any particular time.

People choose to have kids. People do not choose to become old.

Surely it's the same thing unless you believe old people weren't ever kids & their parents didn't chose to have them?

Have traveled widely and if there have been children in the restaurant they have acted within the norm and have been promptly corrected by parents or extended family if they have overstepped the mark.

This has generally been my experience in England except where the parent has decided no one else in that room matters. My issue is when a childs behaviour affects everyone else and the parent thinks it is acceptable.

We all have a day where our child has not been the best but that doesn't mean we ignore it and allow them to do as they wish without boundaries.

@CounsellorTroi

And the OPs point is beautifully proven. There are a lot of people in the UK who dislike children and don’t believe the are fully human

I don’t dislike children. I do believe I have a right not to interact with children ifI don’t want to at any particular time.

Ahh... this is proving my point even further.

You have that right yes but don't be surprised if these children choose not to interact with you in the future (when you are elderly and need looking after).
You reap what you sow...

I don’t dislike children. I do believe I have a right not to interact with children ifI don’t want to at any particular time.

But then you need to not go out in public. You can’t ban a whole section of society from public places for your convenience and pleasure. I don’t particularly like badly behaved children out in public, but I’m aware they aren’t robots and sometimes they’ll have a bad day. I personally don’t see why there would ever be an issue with a well behaved child in a public place but understand that in the UK some people do have a problem. But it’s a bit silly for people to simultaneously claim that we’re a child friendly country, when clearly we aren’t.

But then you need to not go out in public. You can’t ban a whole section of society from public places for your convenience and pleasure.

Never said I could. What I meant is that I am not obliged to show interest in other people’s children.

Why is it being refered to as control? It's not unreasonable to expect people to comply with societal norms. This is not control.
We expect people to treat eachother civilly and with respect. We expect people to turn up to work on time. This isn't control. It's reasonable expectations. I don't expect someone, an adult to scream and shout in a cinema or restaurant, so that I can't hear the film, eat my dinner.

@karmakameleon

I don’t dislike children. I do believe I have a right not to interact with children ifI don’t want to at any particular time.

But then you need to not go out in public. You can’t ban a whole section of society from public places for your convenience and pleasure. I don’t particularly like badly behaved children out in public, but I’m aware they aren’t robots and sometimes they’ll have a bad day. I personally don’t see why there would ever be an issue with a well behaved child in a public place but understand that in the UK some people do have a problem. But it’s a bit silly for people to simultaneously claim that we’re a child friendly country, when clearly we aren’t.

Eh? How have you twisted ‘I don’t want to interact with random children’ into ‘I don’t ever want to see them in public’? Like the pp I have no problem with children being out and about in public but I don’t want to talk to them or help their parents control them. If they come and talk to me I’m polite and friendly but I really don’t understand your expectation that I should be going out of my way to interact with them