Why is UK so child unfriendly?

[bezabez]

Hi! I am foreign person living in the UK for the past 15 years.

I have noticed that the attitudes towards children are really strange in this country. Generally kids aren't accepted to be kids. They are expected to be quiet (ish) if out and about eg in a restaurant or a cafe, women don't breastfeed often in public (UK has the lowest rate of breastfeeding in the world) and they are expected 'to do as you're told' - that's a weird expression in itself tbh and to behave and never show a wild side. If on a train or other public spaces people tend not to engage with them even with babies (where I'm from there would be talking and smiling and general admirations) or tthey make faces, huffing and puffing etc if the children 'misbehave'.

Also parents complain A LOT about having children, sometimes as a form of a banter as these are socially acceptable jokes. Especially during the holidays.

On top of that there aren't many affordable childcare options or things like holiday camps and clubs (I know they exist in bigger cities sometimes but it isn't the same).

Overall it's no place for young people!

Does it come from the Victorian 'kids are to be seen not heard' thing?

Again where I'm from kids are celebrated as the future here they are mostly treated as inconvenience.

@bezabez

This thread isn't about personal experience but society as a whole and people's attitudes.

Why wouldn't you want to help? That's the point...

If you saw an elderly person struggling or falling over, would you help them (even if they were accompanied)? If yes, why? They aren't your parents/ grandparents...

Why then children aren't worthy being a part of society?

Surely it really depends what the situation is. Yes, I would help an old person if they fell over in the street. If I saw a child about to run into the road or something, I’d stop them, or if I saw a child alone and crying in public I’d try and get them back to their parent. But if I saw a parent trying to wrangle several badly behaved disobedient children, no, I’d leave them to it. That’s their job, and their kids, it’s not an emergency.

[quote karmakameleon]@EarthSight

Yes. I feel differently about those scenarios though.

But why? Why would you be prepared to help an elderly person or a disabled one, but not a parent with young children?

I’m not talking about spoon feeding toddlers or changing nappies but often there is practical assistance that can be given. Helping with prams, bags etc. Making space for people (it always annoyed me when other pedestrians expected me to step into the road with the buggy on a narrow path). Giving up a seat for a toddler on a bus. Letting someone struggling with children go to the font of a queue. Lots of things people can do to make life with kids a bit easier.[/quote]
@karmakameleon

I feel differently about it mainly because what I'm pushing back against is a sort of entitled attitude some parents have towards other people either looking after or tolerating their sometimes badly behaved children.

I mostly don't have anything against your suggestions.....except the queue one!

" I can’t understand why an adult’s comfort would come before a child’s comfort and safety."

Partly because adults have to pay full price for their seats. When I was growing up it was the rules that children on half fare had to give up their seats for adults and toddlers would be on their parent's lap. I find it quite odd that someone is arguing that a toddler needs an adult's seat.

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

Well, that’s hardly surprising, given that when they occasionally do mention where they were from before spending a decade plus in the UK, defensive posters hit back with anecdata about that thing they saw when they were on a week’s sun holiday at a hotel with a lot of Germans, or something.

Wouldn't that be the same way OP is using anekdata?

Yep!

[quote Geamhradh]@karmakameleon
That's just it isn't it?

You're not even allowed to look at a British baby on MN (if you're a female over the age of 40 because you're an "old bag" and seemingly "tut" every time a child comes within 10 metres of you, or if you're a man you're obviously a "paedo") yet the same people show up on all these threads going on about Italian waiters taking toddlers off to the kitchens.
I've been in Italy since 1994 and have yet to see it happen mind.[/quote]
Strangely I have had an Italian waitress go off with a toddler to show everyone in the kitchen. It was in England though so not sure if it counts.

Surely it really depends what the situation is. Yes, I would help an old person if they fell over in the street. If I saw a child about to run into the road or something, I’d stop them, or if I saw a child alone and crying in public I’d try and get them back to their parent. But if I saw a parent trying to wrangle several badly behaved disobedient children, no, I’d leave them to it. That’s their job, and their kids, it’s not an emergency

This @TedMullins

Also, people don't realise that the reason why some people don't get involved, is that they didn't want to have kids precisely so they didn't have to deal with that kind of situation!!

I'm happy that Uk has these attitudes. I like that restaurants are not child focused. Plenty of places are. I think parents these days are too Children centred.

I've had no problems in the last 20 years for childcare, holiday clubs etc.

I breastfed both ds's in public and didn't feel not welcomed.

"The British grandparents tend to be of the “grandparents don’t owe you childcare” variety, as seen on MN. Their grandparent experience consists of exchanging cute photos on social media."

That contradicts the media reports that grandparent childcare is very common in the UK, partly because childcare is so expensive.

When DC1 was a baby, we were on holiday in Asia. We were staying in a lovely hotel, which had a fancy restaurant attached. Not suitable for a child according to many on this thread, but perfectly acceptable to take a baby in Asia. DC slept at the start of our meal but woke up half way through. A waitress immediately whisked him away so we could continue our meal in peace. A few minutes later we realised that DC wasn’t with the waitress so asked her what she’d done with him. Apparently at that time of night, the spa wasn’t busy so he was being looked after there. DH and I were shock but she assured us that the staff in the spa were very pleased to have him. We decided to roll with it so we could enjoy our meal and a very happy DC was brought back safely once we’d finished. Can’t imagine how a parent in Britain would have reacted though, whereas in Asia it was all part of the service

@karmakameleon

Yes, service indeed! However, could they have done this less for you, and more so that other guests wouldn't be disturbed by your baby, which is why they were so keen to take him?

I agree in some respects. France, Spain and Italy are very welcoming to kids in restaurants. (Although French children are brought up to sit through very long meals at the table and UK kids are not in general). European countries often have subsidised childcare provision and a good work/life balance. We could learn a lot from other countries.

@Gwenhwyfar

" I can’t understand why an adult’s comfort would come before a child’s comfort and safety."

Partly because adults have to pay full price for their seats. When I was growing up it was the rules that children on half fare had to give up their seats for adults and toddlers would be on their parent's lap. I find it quite odd that someone is arguing that a toddler needs an adult's seat.

@Gwenhwyfar

Small children are not usually safe to stand on buses and trains. Nothing to do with paying a fare or not. OAPs go free on buses but I’ve seen anyone argue that they shouldn’t get a seat over a fare paying adult.

Difficult can come when one half of a couple wants children up until the parnts go to bed and the other wants them tucked up and out of the way by 8pm to have 2 or 3 hours to eat, talk, relax without children around.

@EarthSight

When DC1 was a baby, we were on holiday in Asia. We were staying in a lovely hotel, which had a fancy restaurant attached. Not suitable for a child according to many on this thread, but perfectly acceptable to take a baby in Asia. DC slept at the start of our meal but woke up half way through. A waitress immediately whisked him away so we could continue our meal in peace. A few minutes later we realised that DC wasn’t with the waitress so asked her what she’d done with him. Apparently at that time of night, the spa wasn’t busy so he was being looked after there. DH and I were shock but she assured us that the staff in the spa were very pleased to have him. We decided to roll with it so we could enjoy our meal and a very happy DC was brought back safely once we’d finished. Can’t imagine how a parent in Britain would have reacted though, whereas in Asia it was all part of the service

@karmakameleon

Yes, service indeed! However, could they have done this less for you, and more so that other guests wouldn't be disturbed by your baby, which is why they were so keen to take him?

Unlikely. He wasn’t crying or causing a fuss, just awake. We lived in this country for a time and it was usual for babies and children to be in high end restaurants. On this occasion they had time so they took him, normally they would have had a play and a cuddle and then given him back so they could get in with their work.

"Small children are not usually safe to stand on buses and trains. Nothing to do with paying a fare or not. "

Small ones, no, but why can't toddlers share a seat?
The children that stand up to give adults their seat are usually a bit older.
Obviously, we don't make old people stand up because it would be hard for them.

I think it’s a matter of time and place if you go to a child friendly restaurant you can expect some disturbance but if you choose to go out for an evening in a posh restaurant you should be able to enjoy it in peace. It is not ok for a child to kick the back of someone’s seat, say on an aeroplane.
However if you go to a park, beach or swimming pool of course they should be allowed to run around.
Some people choose not to have kids but if you do it is up to you to control their behaviour dependent on the circumstances and I think this is the same in most countries.

@Gwenhwyfar

"Small children are not usually safe to stand on buses and trains. Nothing to do with paying a fare or not. "

Small ones, no, but why can't toddlers share a seat?
The children that stand up to give adults their seat are usually a bit older.
Obviously, we don't make old people stand up because it would be hard for them.

They barely fitted and were clearly uncomfortable. They were so uncomfortable they would randomly try to get up to stand and have to be told to sit down again. They were so wriggly that the people next to them were probably uncomfortable too. But assume people just thought they were badly behaved because they couldn’t sit still

Note there was also a heavily pregnant woman with them who was not offered a seat. Presumably people thought it was my “choice” to give up the seat for the DC and so I wasn’t deserving.

And yes old people should get a seat because again it’s often not safe for them to stand. But a physically fit adult is not more important than a small child.

I find this attitude quite fascinating. I can’t understand why an adult’s comfort would come before a child’s comfort and safety. And I’d say that a society that truly believes this can’t possibly be child friendly.

Because there is nothing wrong in two toddlers sharing a seat, even if it’s a bit uncomfortable. If an adult has to stand an hour and a half on their commute after a long day at work, with whatever stains, stresses and illnesses they are dealing with personally, they deserve a seat more than a toddler getting a seat each for ten minutes when they could share. I travel by tube a lot and have seen some very poor behaviour by parents with children hogging half the carriage. There is no way I’d have permitted my DC to do that. They would have sat on my knee if the carriage was busy.

@daisypond

I find this attitude quite fascinating. I can’t understand why an adult’s comfort would come before a child’s comfort and safety. And I’d say that a society that truly believes this can’t possibly be child friendly.

Because there is nothing wrong in two toddlers sharing a seat, even if it’s a bit uncomfortable. If an adult has to stand an hour and a half on their commute after a long day at work, with whatever stains, stresses and illnesses they are dealing with personally, they deserve a seat more than a toddler getting a seat each for ten minutes when they could share. I travel by tube a lot and have seen some very poor behaviour by parents with children hogging half the carriage. There is no way I’d have permitted my DC to do that. They would have sat on my knee if the carriage was busy.

I was pregnant, the two children wouldn’t have fitted on my knee. One would have struggled. How do people know if their journey is longer than mine? They don’t. And if my journey is short, they’ll get the seat back in five minutes when I get off surely?

@Pixxie7

' it is up to you to control their behaviour'

This is the essence really! Why is it okay to CONTROL another human being?
They aren't robots or dogs ( I presume it would be okay for a dog to bark since it doesn't know any better but a child is to be controlled...)
Surely guided, taught and encouraged should be the way, no?

The whole language around children is like this- obey, control, do as you are told. Only slightly short of don't think and feel for yourself as you may inconvenience someone with your existence.

If children are not respected by society how are they going to learn to respect the society?

BTW I am not talking about kids running around restaurants knocking people's plates off the table, just normal behaviour eg if they were crying- this isn't tolerated and often people let you know in a passive aggressive manner.

It genuinely baffles me that people seem to think this is normal attitude and even somehow superior.

A lot of parents I know seem to expect their children to behave like mini adults and yet another them with helicopter or risk averse parenting to the point where children are afraid to take healthy risks.
I also hate how in this country our children are shoved into academic work so young, with less emphasis on their emotional development.
They are children for such a short time and have too longer under the oppressive weight of societal expectations.

bezabez@ I think you have taken this too literally, how would you describe teaching a child right from wrong.

@Pixxie7

bezabez@ I think you have taken this too literally, how would you describe teaching a child right from wrong.

Teaching.

Controlling is the opposite of teaching.

Hurrah!! Someone i agree with. I left UK last year. My goodness the way my daughter has blossomed out of that weird world of " spend a fortune on them but god forbid they should behave like children " . I now live in Southern Europe where she is truly celebrated, tolerated, loved AND ticked off by strangers . Here we raise our children together and its free!! My daughter is blooming and i dont need to pay 48k a year for her to be bilingual. OP you are not wrong- uk is not brilliant for children.

BTW I am not talking about kids running around restaurants knocking people's plates off the table, just normal behaviour eg if they were crying- this isn't tolerated and often people let you know in a passive aggressive manner.

Are people assuming that children in decent restaurants would behave badly? I would expect children to maybe be a bit messier than an adult, possibly not have such refined table manners, and occasionally use their “outside” voice accidentally. I’d obviously correct my children on the manners and the noise level but I wouldn’t expect them to have any significant impact on other dinners. Certainly no more so than a group of rowdy men, who can often be found in posh restaurants.

I also wonder if British children aren’t really practised enough at dining out. Pre-Covid they ate in all sorts of places. Sometimes “family friendly” and sometimes Michelin starred (so shoot me) and mostly everywhere in between. They were generally well behaved and apart from a couple of disasters when they were really little (and we made a hasty exit) we’ve never had issues. (And before anyone assumes that everyone else felt differently, we’ve regularly had compliments on their behaviour from other customers and staff.). But during Covid, we barely went out and this year on holiday, both DH and I noticed that standards have deteriorated. Our answer was to this is to tell them that actually we’re expecting better but also thinking that we probably need to take them out more and get them used to it again. I can’t imagine just not going anywhere with them till they are adults.