Why is UK so child unfriendly?

[bezabez]

Hi! I am foreign person living in the UK for the past 15 years.

I have noticed that the attitudes towards children are really strange in this country. Generally kids aren't accepted to be kids. They are expected to be quiet (ish) if out and about eg in a restaurant or a cafe, women don't breastfeed often in public (UK has the lowest rate of breastfeeding in the world) and they are expected 'to do as you're told' - that's a weird expression in itself tbh and to behave and never show a wild side. If on a train or other public spaces people tend not to engage with them even with babies (where I'm from there would be talking and smiling and general admirations) or tthey make faces, huffing and puffing etc if the children 'misbehave'.

Also parents complain A LOT about having children, sometimes as a form of a banter as these are socially acceptable jokes. Especially during the holidays.

On top of that there aren't many affordable childcare options or things like holiday camps and clubs (I know they exist in bigger cities sometimes but it isn't the same).

Overall it's no place for young people!

Does it come from the Victorian 'kids are to be seen not heard' thing?

Again where I'm from kids are celebrated as the future here they are mostly treated as inconvenience.

@karmakameleon

Random thought. DH and I were talking about him taking the DC to a football match. I can guarantee that my nine and seven year old will behave better than a significant proportion of the men at that match. But drunk, loud men are just accepted as part of society. I don’t see many threads complaining about lairy men just being in the vicinity (obviously different if you’re on the receiving end of abuse) but lots about noisy children just being present. Adults have to be superbly obnoxious before they’re behaviour is commented on but children just need to be children.

Spot on.

I definitely think there's a tendency in the UK to treat children as something of a different species, and a real cultural thrust towards them 'growing up' (in all sorts of ways) as quickly as possible, except in terms of encouraging natural independence/freedom of movement, where it's exactly the opposite.

[quote karmakameleon]@Marguerite2000

I’m not expecting people to agree with the OP. My comment was in response to someone who seems to think that anyone who does agree with the OP is “slagging off England” so wanting to limit the conversation.[/quote]
Yes, I appreciate your point.
However, there does seem to be an undercurrent of 'everything thing British is shit' , and anyone who disagrees is just being defensive, and proving the OP's point.

Just as a general aside, I do find it interesting to wonder why it's considered OK to dismiss some people's lived experience, but not others.

Just as a general aside, I do find it interesting to wonder why it's considered OK to dismiss some people's lived experience, but not others.

@Marguerite2000

I’m not sure what you mean by this comment. People on both sides of this argument have been dismissive of people with opposing views. Happens in every debate as far as I can see.

I think some people might not rush to help toddlers/kids here because there is a fear that you are toeing over someone’s personal space and doubting if it’s yourself misinterpreting a situation.
Not sure if that’s your usual typical British politeness.
Sometimes I’ve wanted to step in but been brushed off and at worse scowled at!

You are not entitled to anybody’s help

Most of society doesn't feel like this hence why we have a NHS & a benefit system. Good things imo

@karmakameleon

In the same way that I might help an old lady with her bags or guide a blind person across the road. People helping each other is a marker of a civilised society

Yes. I feel differently about those scenarios though. However, what kind of help would someone need with their kids?? Helping someone get a pram off a bus is one thing, but are strangers supposed to sit down next to a parent on the train and help them spoon-feed their toddler? What about nappy changing? If a toddler is screaming their face off, what help could a stranger do in that scenario other than making sock-puppets?

Let's face it - it's certainly not men that are expected to do those things - it's other women because we're expect to help out with society's many, caring duties even with kids that aren't even ours.

Random thought. DH and I were talking about him taking the DC to a football match. I can guarantee that my nine and seven year old will behave better than a significant proportion of the men at that match. But drunk, loud men are just accepted as part of society. I don’t see many threads complaining about lairy men just being in the vicinity (obviously different if you’re on the receiving end of abuse) but lots about noisy children just being present. Adults have to be superbly obnoxious before they’re behaviour is commented on but children just need to be children.

Exactly, many children even when behaving badly behave much better than adults so I'm unsure at what point the standards are lowered? I said up thread I've been in plenty of restaurants that are noisy & chaotic despite the lack of children.

@RamblingJenny

I think some people might not rush to help toddlers/kids here because there is a fear that you are toeing over someone’s personal space and doubting if it’s yourself misinterpreting a situation. Not sure if that’s your usual typical British politeness. Sometimes I’ve wanted to step in but been brushed off and at worse scowled at!

I completely get why people don’t help with random children in the UK as you can never be quite certain how it would be taken.

When DC1 was a baby, we were on holiday in Asia. We were staying in a lovely hotel, which had a fancy restaurant attached. Not suitable for a child according to many on this thread, but perfectly acceptable to take a baby in Asia. DC slept at the start of our meal but woke up half way through. A waitress immediately whisked him away so we could continue our meal in peace. A few minutes later we realised that DC wasn’t with the waitress so asked her what she’d done with him. Apparently at that time of night, the spa wasn’t busy so he was being looked after there. DH and I were but she assured us that the staff in the spa were very pleased to have him. We decided to roll with it so we could enjoy our meal and a very happy DC was brought back safely once we’d finished. Can’t imagine how a parent in Britain would have reacted though, whereas in Asia it was all part of the service.

It's swings and roundabouts. We lived in the Middle East where kids are more accepted in adult situations, eg they are allowed to stay up late and socialise with the grown ups until the early hours, kids making noise at restaurants will be met eith smiles and laughter and "how cute" etc, random people come up to you to chat to your kids. But the terrain and lack of pavements and pedestrianised towns are very unchild friendly, no activities, no parks etc.
Opposite here!

@karmakameleon
That's just it isn't it?

You're not even allowed to look at a British baby on MN (if you're a female over the age of 40 because you're an "old bag" and seemingly "tut" every time a child comes within 10 metres of you, or if you're a man you're obviously a "paedo") yet the same people show up on all these threads going on about Italian waiters taking toddlers off to the kitchens.
I've been in Italy since 1994 and have yet to see it happen mind.

A lot of this is cultural norms though, nothing to do with not liking children.
British people are often more reserved and don't like to "get involved " with people they don't know ( look the other way etc)

And as I said earlier we don't culturally expect young children around in the evening,
Friends of ours ( not from uk) would be the only ones to bring their 3 yr old to all adult dinner parties at someone's house. Same friend was invited to a Hen night and asked to bring baby ( very young and she was breast feeding)
No problem with baby coming but she then couldn't understand and was quite cross she couldn't also bring the 5 yr old as she would love it Because in her culture young children are included, in Britain they are not. Just different cultures, nothing against children

@EarthSight

Yes. I feel differently about those scenarios though.

But why? Why would you be prepared to help an elderly person or a disabled one, but not a parent with young children?

I’m not talking about spoon feeding toddlers or changing nappies but often there is practical assistance that can be given. Helping with prams, bags etc. Making space for people (it always annoyed me when other pedestrians expected me to step into the road with the buggy on a narrow path). Giving up a seat for a toddler on a bus. Letting someone struggling with children go to the font of a queue. Lots of things people can do to make life with kids a bit easier.

@bezabez

This thread isn't about personal experience but society as a whole and people's attitudes.

Why wouldn't you want to help? That's the point...

If you saw an elderly person struggling or falling over, would you help them (even if they were accompanied)? If yes, why? They aren't your parents/ grandparents...

Why then children aren't worthy being a part of society?

Help in what way? If your child is kicking off in a restaurant, what do you expect other adults to do? Most Brits I know would help if a child was hurt. I have helped a mother who's child has vomited quite a few times, Supplying wipes and what not. I would not interfere with a screaming or naughty child.

[quote karmakameleon]@EarthSight

Yes. I feel differently about those scenarios though.

But why? Why would you be prepared to help an elderly person or a disabled one, but not a parent with young children?

I’m not talking about spoon feeding toddlers or changing nappies but often there is practical assistance that can be given. Helping with prams, bags etc. Making space for people (it always annoyed me when other pedestrians expected me to step into the road with the buggy on a narrow path). Giving up a seat for a toddler on a bus. Letting someone struggling with children go to the font of a queue. Lots of things people can do to make life with kids a bit easier.[/quote]
People do those things though! I dont drive and I've never struggled on and off a train or bus with a pram. People have helped!
I wouldn't expect "help" with a child having a tantrum though.

People do those things though! I dont drive and I've never struggled on and off a train or bus with a pram. People have helped!

Some do, many don’t. I had my three close together so was pregnant with a one year old and a three year old. The many times I used public transport during that pregnancy I was never offered more than one seat on a train. I assume people offered me a seat as a pregnant woman but didn’t want to give them up for a child. Maybe they expected two toddlers to sit on my lap. I would generally stand and make the two DC share a seat (they sort of fitted but it was in no way comfortable) but really do people think that’s acceptable? I as a heavily pregnant woman could have done with a seat but my two toddlers were not safe to stand at all but lots of physically fit people who thought they deserved a seat more.

I would say that's an arsehole thing, not a British thing though. I haven't had that experience in the north west of England.

Yes it’s an arsehole thing but a disproportionate number of people are arseholes to children and mothers in the UK.

[quote Geamhradh]@karmakameleon
That's just it isn't it?

You're not even allowed to look at a British baby on MN (if you're a female over the age of 40 because you're an "old bag" and seemingly "tut" every time a child comes within 10 metres of you, or if you're a man you're obviously a "paedo") yet the same people show up on all these threads going on about Italian waiters taking toddlers off to the kitchens.
I've been in Italy since 1994 and have yet to see it happen mind.[/quote]
Me either. I lived in Italy for several years, in a rural areas. Never saw this. I saw children out in the evening with their parents, but they were expected to be well-behaved. No kiddy meals, they had to eat what was on the limited menu. I only saw a couple of children misbehaving at table, and they were removed from the restaurant by mortified parents, shouted out in the car park, and brought back in.
I have not observed nor experienced what the OP is talking about. I’ve helped women on and off trains with prams, held babies whilst another child is kicking off, and stopped to chat briefly with a proud grandmother out with the buggy. I think the UK is very child focused, I’ve lived in several countries, and they are all basically the same with regard to children. They just have different ways of expressing their regard.

These 'Let's have a pop at British people' threads always make me laugh, because the OPs never say where they're from themselves

@WorraLiberty

These 'Let's have a pop at British people' threads always make me laugh, because the OPs never say where they're from themselves

Well, that’s hardly surprising, given that when they occasionally do mention where they were from before spending a decade plus in the UK, defensive posters hit back with anecdata about that thing they saw when they were on a week’s sun holiday at a hotel with a lot of Germans, or something.

Well, that’s hardly surprising, given that when they occasionally do mention where they were from before spending a decade plus in the UK, defensive posters hit back with anecdata about that thing they saw when they were on a week’s sun holiday at a hotel with a lot of Germans, or something.

Wouldn't that be the same way OP is using anekdata?

I would generally stand and make the two DC share a seat (they sort of fitted but it was in no way comfortable) but really do people think that’s acceptable?

Yes, I think it’s acceptable for two toddlers to share a seat! It would be really unreasonable to expect two people to give up seats for two toddlers. We don’t have a car and always travelled by public transport.

"I’ve found France to be more non child friendly than the U.K. in my experience. I’ve been many times as I have friends there and it’s common for parents to regularly shush their children as they are expected to be quiet in public. It doesn’t mean they don’t like children though, it’s just a different culture."

I find French parents to be much more strict, also much more interventionist with their children's behaviour, always teaching them stuff, always saying do this or that.

@daisypond

I would generally stand and make the two DC share a seat (they sort of fitted but it was in no way comfortable) but really do people think that’s acceptable?

Yes, I think it’s acceptable for two toddlers to share a seat! It would be really unreasonable to expect two people to give up seats for two toddlers. We don’t have a car and always travelled by public transport.

I find this attitude quite fascinating. I can’t understand why an adult’s comfort would come before a child’s comfort and safety. And I’d say that a society that truly believes this can’t possibly be child friendly.

OP, I agree.

Many in my circle are mixed couples with one parent British and the other from elsewhere in Europe. What I’ve noticed is a difference in grandparenting. The British grandparents tend to be of the “grandparents don’t owe you childcare” variety, as seen on MN. Their grandparent experience consists of exchanging cute photos on social media. The European grandparents are of the “give me the child for the maximum amount of time” variety; they want to be very involved and believe they have a role in the process.