Why is UK so child unfriendly?

[bezabez]

Hi! I am foreign person living in the UK for the past 15 years.

I have noticed that the attitudes towards children are really strange in this country. Generally kids aren't accepted to be kids. They are expected to be quiet (ish) if out and about eg in a restaurant or a cafe, women don't breastfeed often in public (UK has the lowest rate of breastfeeding in the world) and they are expected 'to do as you're told' - that's a weird expression in itself tbh and to behave and never show a wild side. If on a train or other public spaces people tend not to engage with them even with babies (where I'm from there would be talking and smiling and general admirations) or tthey make faces, huffing and puffing etc if the children 'misbehave'.

Also parents complain A LOT about having children, sometimes as a form of a banter as these are socially acceptable jokes. Especially during the holidays.

On top of that there aren't many affordable childcare options or things like holiday camps and clubs (I know they exist in bigger cities sometimes but it isn't the same).

Overall it's no place for young people!

Does it come from the Victorian 'kids are to be seen not heard' thing?

Again where I'm from kids are celebrated as the future here they are mostly treated as inconvenience.

I'm Irish, had my children in England and have lived in France and Switzerland.

Ireland and France have worse breastfeeding rates than the UK and in my opinion, children are not treated better in any of these countries. Children in France are often ignored by their parents at all ages, school both in the class room and in the playground can be brutal and the police and the authorities can be really harsh on teenagers doing nothing wrong. My son who is 17, regularly gets hassle on the train on the way home from sports training despite doing nothing wrong. He says it's easier when your friends are there. We were back in England for a few weeks this summer and were marvelling at how friendly everyone was and how there were so many things to do. Don't get me started on the Swiss and how impatient and rude old people are if your children make a noise.

You sound like you come from the group of people who think everyone should think their child is amazing, even when they’re being a little shit.

My kids are grown up. I don’t want to go to a nice restaurant or even a day time cafe to find other people’s children running riot or showing their wild side. I also appreciate that children need to learn how to behave in a restaurant so it’s definitely a balancing act.

You are being totally unreasonable to expect other people to be interested in other people’s children or to want to interact with them.

I often see women breastfeeding but have no issue with it, not have I ever seen anyone having an issue with someone breastfeeding.

Are you from Italy or Spain. They seem to love children there. I love my own children but that’s about it.

@Booboobadoo

I sometimes feel that children aren't valued as they're seen as 'women's things' and women aren't valued and are also excluded from formulating policy. This despite the fact that the majority of mothers also do paid work outside the home, so are involved in all facets of life. There does seem to be so much negativity about children and young people.

I agree with this. Most fathers I know are quick to distance themselves from their children and wives/partners whenever the children are fussing or not behaving perfectly.

I think babies are more so engaged with positively especially by elders that pass by. However I’d say that when they approach over 5 there is definitely the odd eye roll, tut, here and there. Not sure if that’s UK based as I’ve no other place to compare it to, but there’s less patience even though they are still children.
Receive it from family too, even husband has a shorter amount of patience where as I’m like the mad teacher and love them being expressive, talkative and strong willed.
Sort of feel like it’s paddled out of the, when it should be embraced. There’s a difference in character and misbehaving. I feel like far too many tarnish children’s character or playfulness/accidents for mis-behaviour.

I’m from Spain. The main difference I’ve seen is the much earlier bedtime for children in the UK. If you suggested tu a Spanish parent to put their DC to bed at 7 they’d think you’d gone mad. Entire families are still out and about going shopping and having tapas at 9 pm. I guess long naps and shorter commute to school allow for this

PinkCadillac, I would love to put kids to bed later but I would say the weather lends it self to that lifestyle. Over summer hols ours have stayed up later, we’ve ate out ourselves most nights al fresco at home or gone out but come the U.K winter kids get bored and they can’t just play out or we can’t just eat outside. I think that’s the main difference personally.

Yes remember a Spanish friend finding it both bizarre that my then 5 year old was in bed at 7:30pm, but also shocking they were expected to go through the day with no nap.

But then for a large chunk of the year, the late afternoon and early evening is the best part of the day in Spain, in the UK, really the best of the day is 11am - 4pm, sleeping through that to be up when it's shit is a bad idea!

If on a train or other public spaces people tend not to engage with them even with babies (where I'm from there would be talking and smiling and general admirations) or tthey make faces, huffing and puffing etc if the children 'misbehave'

I'm with you on the breatfeeding thing, and I enjoy talking and engaging with children generally, but there's a limit. Other train passengers are not there to entertain or fawn over your children, or make you feel good for having them. They are not the centre of the universe.

Most people on trains are not necessarily having a jolly day out. Many are commuting, on business, are grateful to have a bit of peace & quiet after making their way through busy traffic to get to the train station. They want to sit down and shut themselves off to recharge. Not everyone likes it when children run up to them and stare, ask questions or start wanting attention. Some kids don't seem to be able to communicate without constantly squealing or screaming. If you don't prevent them from doing this to people who would clearly prefer to be left alone, then do expect huffing and puffing. You are meant to be parenting the child, not them.

I've worked for years in retail and customer service and it's not uncommon for parents to enter a shop and basically dump their children onto the staff and expect them to be temporary childminders. They will disappear around the corner, far away in their own little world, whilst their darlings grab everything in sight, knock things over, move expensive items and generally just start making a mess which then the staff have to tidy up. One time a toddler almost made her way out of our doors on to a streets where cars were known to speed down it. She could have been easily knocked down if I hadn't had stopped her from going out the door. Where was her mum? She had her back turned and had left her child wandering around the shop, thinking we would loo after her.

Even teachers do this to shop staff and in our shop we had to state that groups of schoolkids weren't allowed to enter the shop unless they had a teacher with them.....otherwise said teachers & TAs would also find a reason to disappear and not keep on eye on the group.

It's experiences like this that might explain why you might have had some less than enthusiastic responses to your children. They might be thinking 'Oh here we go. Another parent trying offload their children onto other people!'. Not saying that's you, but it could be what they're thinking.

thinking we would look after her*

@Macncheeseballs

But why do so many prefer to bottle feed, I've never really understood

Well, speaking from my own personal experience as someone who did try breastfeeding - Breastfeeding was painful, massively time consuming, and just messy and inconvenient. Formula feeding was much, much easier. I've never forgotten the massive sense of relief I felt when my first born child gulped down his first bottle of formula and fell asleep for hours afterwards. That did influence me into feeding my second and third children formula straight from birth.

@Fullerene

Depends on where you're from. I lived abroad for a long time and children in the country I lived in were FAR quieter, expected to behave and just generally get on with things and fit into society seamlessly. Childcare was often insufficient, so many women with young children were forced to work part-time.

Only a few differences I can think of, which would make the UK more friendly in coparison:
An expectation that children socialise with adults when invited elsewhere, rather than leaving the adults to it.
Restaurant food allowing child-friendly portions of the menu (appropriately discounted as less food), rather than the crappy options given to children here.

@Fullerene

Japan?

@karmakameleon

THERE IS PLENTY OF JUDGMENT BUT NO HELP.

Yes that’s exactly it. When people see you’re struggling with your children, they rarely step in and help but there’s plenty of tutting often outright criticism.

@karmakameleon

Well......that's because the children aren't theirs!!! Why on earth would you expect them to help???

Another slag off England thread, well done!

This thread isn't about personal experience but society as a whole and people's attitudes.

Why wouldn't you want to help? That's the point...

If you saw an elderly person struggling or falling over, would you help them (even if they were accompanied)? If yes, why? They aren't your parents/ grandparents...

Why then children aren't worthy being a part of society?

@EarthSight

In the same way that I might help an old lady with her bags or guide a blind person across the road. People helping each other is a marker of a civilised society.

Often people go out of there way not to help in the UK.

Just as an example, I remember struggling with a poorly balanced toddler on the buses in London. Rarely did people give up a seat for a child. I’ve seen before on mumsnet people saying that if you have children, you should avoid public transport at busy times as if people have a choice. There are lots of places where kids aren’t welcome or accommodated.

@bezabez

This thread isn't about personal experience but society as a whole and people's attitudes.

Why wouldn't you want to help? That's the point...

If you saw an elderly person struggling or falling over, would you help them (even if they were accompanied)? If yes, why? They aren't your parents/ grandparents...

Why then children aren't worthy being a part of society?

Children are part of British society. I've raised three children in the UK - mostly as a single parent - and simply don't recognise what you're talking about.

It was seriously impressive. He didn't even have to think. Over here, people might think "Oh that kid's going to fall" but there's somehow an instinct not to touch other people's kids or get involved. But that guy, it was clearly second nature to him to watch out for kids (any kid) and he instinctively knew how to catch him before he fell. We really felt the culture difference that day (and were grateful, obviously).

Well yes, you only have to read the posts on here to see threads on people complaining that they're out in a cafe and strangers want to engage with/pat their baby on the head. And don't forget that men are rapists and abusers.

[quote m0therofdragons]@Constellationstation wow so I’m uncultured because I’ve not experienced the hostility to my dc in the uk? Brilliant. We’ve travelled a lot in the USA (dc have visited 11 different states) Canada (Vancouver is weird as we only saw dc in the parks but never along the beach or in shops), we’ve also visited various places across Europe with dc and have family in a number of places across the globe. I’ve not noticed a huge difference other than in Kenya where dc were without any supervision begging on the beach - they were still polite and so were the adults to them. Maybe I just have likeable, polite kids [/quote]
I certainly wasn’t thinking about the USA when I was thinking of countries that are warmer towards children. I wasn’t thinking of Canada either, but that’s only because I’m not familiar with the culture towards children there.
The UK is generally polite, just doesn’t seem to celebrate children like some other countries do, especially other European countries.
Congratulations on your likeable polite kids.

@Somanysocks

Another slag off England thread, well done!

Can people not comment on cultural differences? I’m sure there are lots of things the UK does well and lots it does badly. Why wouldn’t you talk about it?

Lol, everybody doesn’t want nor need to pander to children you chose to have. Parents need to accept that adults deserve quiet spaces where kids aren’t running around doing whatever they want whilst you do absolutely nothing to make them behave.

@bezabez

This thread isn't about personal experience but society as a whole and people's attitudes.

Why wouldn't you want to help? That's the point...

If you saw an elderly person struggling or falling over, would you help them (even if they were accompanied)? If yes, why? They aren't your parents/ grandparents...

Why then children aren't worthy being a part of society?

If you can’t handle your kids you shouldn’t have had them. You are not entitled to anybody’s help, and nobody is obliged to like or help kids if they don’t want to - and yes, just not wanting to is a perfectly valid reason not to.

I don't agree with what OP said about people not taking any notice of babies and toddlers. I'm in London and often smile at little ones out and about, frequently getting a smile back from the parent, but when we spent six months in Spain, it seemed like a real no-no to have any interaction with other people's children; no positive reaction from parents at all, more like suspicion.

Random thought. DH and I were talking about him taking the DC to a football match. I can guarantee that my nine and seven year old will behave better than a significant proportion of the men at that match. But drunk, loud men are just accepted as part of society. I don’t see many threads complaining about lairy men just being in the vicinity (obviously different if you’re on the receiving end of abuse) but lots about noisy children just being present. Adults have to be superbly obnoxious before they’re behaviour is commented on but children just need to be children.

karma of course people can comment, that doesn't mean to say we all have to agree with the OP.
As someone who a) grew up as a British child and b)have parented 3 children in the UK, I don't agree with her OP, and I'm entitled to say so. I don't believe the UK is child unfriendly.

@Marguerite2000

I’m not expecting people to agree with the OP. My comment was in response to someone who seems to think that anyone who does agree with the OP is “slagging off England” so wanting to limit the conversation.