Why is UK so child unfriendly?

[bezabez]

Hi! I am foreign person living in the UK for the past 15 years.

I have noticed that the attitudes towards children are really strange in this country. Generally kids aren't accepted to be kids. They are expected to be quiet (ish) if out and about eg in a restaurant or a cafe, women don't breastfeed often in public (UK has the lowest rate of breastfeeding in the world) and they are expected 'to do as you're told' - that's a weird expression in itself tbh and to behave and never show a wild side. If on a train or other public spaces people tend not to engage with them even with babies (where I'm from there would be talking and smiling and general admirations) or tthey make faces, huffing and puffing etc if the children 'misbehave'.

Also parents complain A LOT about having children, sometimes as a form of a banter as these are socially acceptable jokes. Especially during the holidays.

On top of that there aren't many affordable childcare options or things like holiday camps and clubs (I know they exist in bigger cities sometimes but it isn't the same).

Overall it's no place for young people!

Does it come from the Victorian 'kids are to be seen not heard' thing?

Again where I'm from kids are celebrated as the future here they are mostly treated as inconvenience.

My dad got caned at school he would still argue his childhood was less pressured, restricted & confined & he had more autonomy than my dc.

@amiadillo

Why were they happier?

As I said in the other post, they weren't constantly on the internet and they didn't have exam pressure and they played out more.

Not child friendly ? Not my experience -
Really a bit of a non discussion of OP is defensive of saying where she is comparing it to 🤷‍♀️

I think life as a British child vs spanish child must be very different. British children spend alot of time indoors due to the weather, I imagine Spanish children have alot more time for outdoor free play with friends. Id say thats why there might be more unhapiness amongst british children. In a warmer climate as well i think parenting is less stressful.

and they played out more.

I said playing out was really important? I also said that dc don't do that as much anymore so therefore they are more likely to be with parents & perhaps more likely to be with parents in these "adult only spaces. Where else can they be?

As I said in the other post, they weren't constantly on the internet and they didn't have exam pressure and they played out more.

And they weren’t bombarded with images of photoshopped impossible to obtain naturally faces and bodies.

I think European dc see the same media images though so it can't just be that

Because children are annoying.

@amiadillo

My dad got caned at school he would still argue his childhood was less pressured, restricted & confined & he had more autonomy than my dc.

The OP posted regarding our expectations of children in restaurants and on trains etc and then about our early bedtimes. When I was a child, we darent have played up in restaurants or on trains and bedtime was strict. The expectations of our childrens behaviour was much higher in the past, yet they were happier.

@ofwarren it's wasn't normal when I was young to go out all the time to restaurants, they didn't really exist as they do today. Coffee shops were pretty rare too. When did you grow up?

The expectations of our childrens behaviour was much higher in the past, yet they were happier.

I also don't think you can see children were happier in the past because expectations were higher.

I wouldn’t allow my children to play out here being a main road you can’t kick a ball, play games, ride bikes up and down etc as you would be blocking the street, Alright if you live on an estate or cul de sac but not possible for children living on main roads and I’ve never seen it

[quote amiadillo]@ofwarren it's wasn't normal when I was young to go out all the time to restaurants, they didn't really exist as they do today. Coffee shops were pretty rare too. When did you grow up?

[/quote]
I was born in 1979.
We visited cafes, pubs and started foreign holidays when I was 8.
My mum would have been mortified if I messed around on the bus or ran around the pub. It just wouldn't happen. To be honest, she would have given me a smack.
I don't hit my children but they wouldn't dream of messing around in a cafe.

I've found that my DS (not so much DD) seemed to have no idea or anticipation of what other people were doing/where they were walking until he was about 9 (I noticed his friends were the same if I took them out) so i was constantly saying watch where you walk/be careful of that lady etc if we were somewhere busy. Not to spoil his fun or be annoying but because if he walks into someone because hes not paying attention, one or both of them might hurt themselves.
When he was smaller I might physically move him of the way, and I didnt allow him to scoot or cycle in crowded streets for this reason. I seem to be in the minority though as I live near a school and ar pick up or drop off lots of toddlers are on bikes or scooters - often other people having to quickly move before being rammed into and a small child scooter into the back of my legs once because they were unable to judge the gap (they were behind me otherwise I would have moved) the parent didnt say a word.
I once met an acquaintance who's 3 year old was on a balance bike, at pick up time, and the toddler went out of sight .i said I better let you go and he just carried on chatting and said "dont worry hes really good on it". I was panicking that a car might back out of a drive and not see him.
I'm dont think I'm a grumpy old cow who hates children neither do I think I'm over protective ...but maybe I am....

@amiadillo

The expectations of our childrens behaviour was much higher in the past, yet they were happier.

I also don't think you can see children were happier in the past because expectations were higher.

I didn't actually say "because expectations were higher". My point is that people are referring to the happiness survey when it doesn't correlate to expectations of children when out in public. The children who were unhappy said it was Issues around friendship, money, appearance and school.

Yes pubs were far more common, they are dying these days. The pubs from my childhood often had gardens & play equipment.

I grew up on a rough council estate in the 70s mainly and restaurants were not a regular feature but going to visit relatives was. We had a lot of freedom as kids to roam with other kids, building dens in the woods, getting buses into the city ourselves at a young age, going swimming etc and plenty of going to the park etc too. Sometimes we'd go as a family for a picnic or for a day out at the beach. However, if we went anywhere with our parents be it visiting or the shops or cinema, we were expected to behave and we did. It's balance isn't it? time to let of steam in places for that and good manners when in places where that should be expected.

To me it feels like a lot of people here (UK) expect parents not to parent but to train their kids so they are convenient.

Exactly, children are usually seen as an inconvenience here. Getting them into a routine that suits adults and getting them to behave (be obedient, really) is the cultural norm.

There's a reason we also have some of the worst drinking culture, laddish behaviour, worst hen/stag dos in Europe and terrible football hooligans. The splitting of society where children are seen as inferior and an inconvenience to adults so they're not allowed to experience large parts of society until they're adults can't be helping.

Also the amount of people who think children in a restaurant at night means children screaming and running riot clearly don't have very high opinions of children. If its normal in a culture for children to do those things then it's also normal for them to generally behave, maybe not be totally quiet and like an adult (although adults often act far worse) but like reasonable children.

@ElephantOfRisk

I grew up on a rough council estate in the 70s mainly and restaurants were not a regular feature but going to visit relatives was. We had a lot of freedom as kids to roam with other kids, building dens in the woods, getting buses into the city ourselves at a young age, going swimming etc and plenty of going to the park etc too. Sometimes we'd go as a family for a picnic or for a day out at the beach. However, if we went anywhere with our parents be it visiting or the shops or cinema, we were expected to behave and we did. It's balance isn't it? time to let of steam in places for that and good manners when in places where that should be expected.

Exactly that

I think lots of places, even historic buildings cater for children and have activities and facilities for them. Not so much in other european countries we've visited. A agree with a PP that the weather plays into this. We have more facilities specifically to entertain DC indoors in the UK whereas outdoor free play is more of a feature abroad where there may be easier access to beaches or pools, often play parks are either empty or just with tourist children playing.

My point is that people are referring to the happiness survey when it doesn't correlate to expectations of children when out in public.
The children who were unhappy said it was Issues around friendship, money, appearance and school.

But free play is important too so I don't think you can ignore that it's drastically reduced. European children also have friendship, money & appearance worries but they are still happier than UK dc so it cannot just be those factors.
I think how a society sees children & treats children is intertwined with its expectations of their behaviour so we will just have to agree to disagree.

I agree somewhat. I have relatives in Spain. I love the atmosphere there where you can sit in a cafe in the evening while all the DC play in the square. DC are not expected to be out in the evening here which can make it really lonely if you have no childcare. And yes, DC are made more of a fuss of. Yes, people sometimes talk to babies/toddlers in the UK but mainly women. In Spain it is men as much as women and it is just a whole other level than what happens in the UK. I also remember when we went to Egypt when DS was a baby - I had piles of lollipops that he'd been given (that I didn't let him have as he was only 9 months!)

I think those that do BF do so in public - I certainly did and all my friends. Although our area had a much higher breastfeeding rate than the average. It had improved due to the fantastic Children's centre we had which had a thriving breastfeeding support group (Tories have got rid of it now and breastfeeding rates have dropped )

Wraparound care and holiday clubs are readily available here but we are a large town.

More cars have made outdoor play less safe

But our attitude towards children in this country was worse in the 70s, 80s and before that, we even had corporal punishment in schools, yet children were at their happiest then 🤷

Were they happier, though? What's it based on? People often don't realise childhood issues and trauma until they're adults. They also had no way of explaining mental health issues because they weren't a thing, and children were just expected to deal with stuff. There are lots of people in that generation who have all the same problems that children today have, they just hide it away.

@ElephantOfRisk but do you think today's dcs have the same opportunity to let off steam? My parents often had no idea what I got up to unsupervised.