Why is UK so child unfriendly?

[bezabez]

Hi! I am foreign person living in the UK for the past 15 years.

I have noticed that the attitudes towards children are really strange in this country. Generally kids aren't accepted to be kids. They are expected to be quiet (ish) if out and about eg in a restaurant or a cafe, women don't breastfeed often in public (UK has the lowest rate of breastfeeding in the world) and they are expected 'to do as you're told' - that's a weird expression in itself tbh and to behave and never show a wild side. If on a train or other public spaces people tend not to engage with them even with babies (where I'm from there would be talking and smiling and general admirations) or tthey make faces, huffing and puffing etc if the children 'misbehave'.

Also parents complain A LOT about having children, sometimes as a form of a banter as these are socially acceptable jokes. Especially during the holidays.

On top of that there aren't many affordable childcare options or things like holiday camps and clubs (I know they exist in bigger cities sometimes but it isn't the same).

Overall it's no place for young people!

Does it come from the Victorian 'kids are to be seen not heard' thing?

Again where I'm from kids are celebrated as the future here they are mostly treated as inconvenience.

This thread the issue of how sad it is that kids lose out on interaction from men because of this stupid instant accusation that something is wrong if they are interested in little ones. My DS loves kids and would naturally interact with them but as young adult has been socially modelled to never dare even engage in a conversation. It is so sad. It's so nice for kids to learn to engage with strangers, and to grow to think of men as loving fun and caring individuals.

@hidingnowsons

I'm from somewhere in the Med and children are actively allowed to stay up until they drop (usually around 10pm!) and it's seem as completely normal

What time does school start and aren't the children tired in the morning? My children would be dreadful if they went to sleep at 10pm on a school night.

@JackieWeaverHandforthCouncil

If you think it’s ok for your child to run around screaming in a restaurant, there are specific places that cater for that behaviour such as McDonald’s.

If I was in a nice restaurant and you were sat next to me ignoring your children yelling and running around. I would certainly not be cooing over them.

Many times I've walked straight out of a restaurant if I've seen kids in there. I find British parents allow their darlings to run amok whilst the mums and dads have a good time. Often ruining it for others. My kids have now left school and I look forward to spending my holidays outside of school holidays....until my husband reminded me the u5s will still be around! 🙄🙄

Oh I agree op, I have 4 children 2 with autism and they are loud and don’t understand that they have to behave a certain way in public and be quiet, I am constantly on edge when I take them out and feel like I have to keep them quiet as much as I possibly can which is exhausting I worry about them making too much noise as I know people don’t like it, I’m constantly shushing them when we are out and about, now I might seem paranoid but we have actually had several comments from members of the public or they’ve been told to shut up etc

As for breastfeeding I breastfed all of mine till at least 2 and beyond but I don’t know anyone else that did bf for a few months and that wasn’t because they didn’t want to breastfeed in public (I did and never had a negative comment) but more so because they “want their life back” (not saying there is anything wrong with that just stating why they stopped)

But Yes I agree the U.K. is very very unfriendly towards children (or perhaps it’s where I am london)

@dina10

Obviously this is a generalisation. It is what I have observed. I brought Victorian times as I believe a lot societal attitudes changed then and some still resonate. If this attitude doesn't come from that time that's fair enough.

Naming my country is really irrelevant as I have observed similar attitudes in different European countries except the UK ( and I have said earlier on this is based on European perception as I couldn't comment/ compare with other continents as I haven't been there).

A lot of people here seem to understand what I mean so clearly I am making sense.

To me it feels like a lot of people here (UK) expect parents not to parent but to train their kids so they are convenient.
If this is the right attitude then why are British children one of the most unhappy in the world with high level of mental health issues year after year?

This post isn't "I'm great you are all shit". I genuinely would like to understand it as it is a bit of a phenomenon for me.

French restaurants dont seem to open until 7:30 in the evening. That's hardly child friendly for little kids who need to get up in the morning.

Or is the intent they have a afternoon nap before eating then a late bedtime?

European summer holidays are longer, more like 2 plus months so the issue of school is a bit less pressing. Many schools/nurseries in the country I know best let the children have naps til quite old, even 5 or 6, so they get enough sleep. Not everywhere stays up til 10/11, my husband was put to bed around 8, so time to go out for dinner and then get home on a school night, later in the holidays.

@latissimusdorsi

I was in Clark's shoe shop last week. Busy, stressful place at best of times just before schools go back. 2 primary school age children (think not from uk due to language spoken) were playing tig! Mother, who was buying shoes for herself not the kids, was very mildly admonishing them. Now I'm very happy to see kids running around playing and making plenty noise but they need to be taught where it's appropriate and where it isn't.

And this happens far too often sadly! Let them run around a playground but not in a shop!

@OnwardsAndSideways1 surely even if they do have longer holidays they ,still need to be up and out to childcare or activities in the mornings?

I was once sitting on a plane and a twenty something man from that culture played peekaboo with my 12 month old for most of the three hour flight, again, not something a UK twentysomething man would do.

With pfb I had a long awkward train jorney back to my parents by myself - partly so bad as I needed the travel seat so collapsing the pushchair was bloody hard - it was also a packed train- I eneded up in the corridor with around 20 year old squaddie who spent rest of joruney playing with pfb and helping me move out of the way of other much less patient passengers. He was fantastic and helped me off the train as well.

I was surpsied how many of DH 20s male collgues loved playing with pfb as well - so if we were out with them she got a lot of attention.

We've also with young children on trains had teens and young adults move so we could sit together without us asking. TBH is usually middle aged and older people who have been difficult - though met many lovely people in that gae bracket as well.

@Lockdownbear yes but people let children nap more, here a lot of children are kept going or drop their naps very early so they sleep at night from 7pm. If you let them stay up later, you don't have to get so stressed if they nap at 5pm say. They might go to childcare or holiday activities, but most places let them nap!

Children in Europe are not sleep deprived, they think our attitude to sleep is really funny. That said, I always kept my children in the UK routine even abroad as it was too faffy to change it just for a week or two.

If you’ve never lived abroad it’s hard to see it because you don’t know any different, there is no real comparison. There’s a reason U.K. children often come amongst the lowest in happiness surveys. There is definitely a higher expectation of the behaviour of children in England where good behaviour and manners are such an inherent indicator of class.

What used to annoy me as much as anything, when I worked in a small library, was the minority of mothers (it nearly always was the mothers) who let their kids charge around, shrieking and bumping into adults trying to choose books, and then saying, ‘Don’t do that, or the lady (staff) will be cross.’

Not, ‘Don’t do that because we don’t run around shrieking in libraries.’ And nice Mummy won’t be cross, just the nasty lady.

We weren’t allowed to say anything anyway! There was an excellent children’s section, too, where they could have amused themselves quietly for a little while - as a good many did.

@PoppenhuisStories

When you say abroad where do you men? Where have you lived?

Ex-pat children often live over privileged lives compared to many local children.

There’s a reason U.K. children often come amongst the lowest in happiness surveys

Clearly something is going wrong.

I wonder if the OP is talking about the european country which apparently has the happiest children? On visiting this country we found that the reason could be that they do whatever they want including to the inconvenience and rudeness to other children and/or adults. Queue jumping, pushing, shouting, excluding, running wild in inappropriate places. Then when on holiday in Turkey, encountered children from this same place that were the same, caused a lot of bother on a trip by ignoring the tour guide's safety concerns and ended up having to stop some of the fun activities because of entitled, spoiled, selfish behaviour. Tour guide said he always dreaded it when people from this country were booked on.

I agree lack of support doesn't help with breastfeeding rates. I had to stop with DS1 at about 6 weeks as i had constant infections and pain and he was hungry. I had to stop with DS2 before 6 months as I needed to be back at work. I never felt ashamed to feed in public though and never got any weird looks or whatever.

To be fair, in retrospect I think i maybe was too strict with my DC when they were younger but on the flip side, i could (and did) take them anywhere. Plenty visits to parks and softplay and the like for them to let of steam.

@GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER you get it in healthcare settings too, kids running into rooms with sharp boxes on the counter and totally oblivious parents who never tell the kid they need to sit down and shut up.

You can tell kids who’ve never had no said to them.

I think the UK has lost an element of free play particularly outdoors. I grew up in London but it was normal for us to play in the street with other dc without supervision. That doesn't seem to exist anymore, dc probably spend most of their time with parents or in school/active camps & those settings don't always prioritise playing.

Err it’s not possible to play in most of London, I live on a busy main road in London, no kids play out around here not because of the reasons you said but because it isn’t safe.

The 'British Children being some of the unhappiest' is nothing to do with expectations of behaviour in restaurants and what time they went to bed as young children, it's issues around friendship, money, appearance and school according to the reports.

Children here were at their happiest years ago when they had freedom to play out with their friends, less exam pressure and no internet where they compare themselves to others. If anything, years ago parents were MORE strict and wouldn't tolerate any of this running around in restaurants and screaming in cafes etc. You didn't have hardly any of the child friendly places we have now.

I live in a nice area with no through traffic and the street is filled with DC playing independently. Mine did too but they are 21 and 20 now. Outside supervised until 5 or 6, outside themselves but street only or walk to a nearby friend's after asking until 8 ish, then the run of the estate and local playgrounds until 10ish and then allowed to scooter or cycle to shops and further away park together or with friends.

@PumpkinKlNG yes because traffic has increased but it was normal in the past in London (I was only born in the 80s). I think across the UK in general dc are far less likely to play outside unsupervised these days.

The 'British Children being some of the unhappiest' is nothing to do with expectations of behaviour in restaurants and what time they went to bed as young children, it's issues around friendship, money, appearance and school according to the reports.

Surely it's all intertwined with society's attitude to children?

@amiadillo

The 'British Children being some of the unhappiest' is nothing to do with expectations of behaviour in restaurants and what time they went to bed as young children, it's issues around friendship, money, appearance and school according to the reports.

Surely it's all intertwined with society's attitude to children?

But our attitude towards children in this country was worse in the 70s, 80s and before that, we even had corporal punishment in schools, yet children were at their happiest then 🤷

Why were they happier?