Why is UK so child unfriendly?

[bezabez]

Hi! I am foreign person living in the UK for the past 15 years.

I have noticed that the attitudes towards children are really strange in this country. Generally kids aren't accepted to be kids. They are expected to be quiet (ish) if out and about eg in a restaurant or a cafe, women don't breastfeed often in public (UK has the lowest rate of breastfeeding in the world) and they are expected 'to do as you're told' - that's a weird expression in itself tbh and to behave and never show a wild side. If on a train or other public spaces people tend not to engage with them even with babies (where I'm from there would be talking and smiling and general admirations) or tthey make faces, huffing and puffing etc if the children 'misbehave'.

Also parents complain A LOT about having children, sometimes as a form of a banter as these are socially acceptable jokes. Especially during the holidays.

On top of that there aren't many affordable childcare options or things like holiday camps and clubs (I know they exist in bigger cities sometimes but it isn't the same).

Overall it's no place for young people!

Does it come from the Victorian 'kids are to be seen not heard' thing?

Again where I'm from kids are celebrated as the future here they are mostly treated as inconvenience.

@tempester28

Queen Victoria

Yes? How can I help you?

I agree amiadillo we are less family oriented

But even when just myself and ds there is more interaction with ds and myself we are not an overly friendly society

I would have given up bf if it wasn't for my mum support tbh.

I have a feeling op has recently been to a restaurant with her —feral— children and got given short shrift.

I’ve lived and worked in Europe, Russia and America, and generally most children were being taught that different environments require different behaviour. In my family we call this ‘parenting’, and try to show them that their having fun should not impact others unless they want it. However, there were also families gossiping, smoking and drinking and letting the children use the restaurant as an adventure playground too.

I think the bf is an entirely different matter.

As for offering help - we’re a bit strung up on safeguarding and generally not keen on strangers ‘helping’ our children.

I have a 10 mo baby and have found people are very friendly and chatty with him. I also breastfeed in public and have had some really supportive comments.

Totally agree re childcare - it's insane.

If I'm not correct bf is more common in places like London. I do think you need support & time with it.

@Topia

We’re British, don’t you know! Complaining is what we do. We enjoy complaining; about weather, children, the government, colleagues at work, marriage, housework, & then back to the weather again. It’s 99% of our dialogue, & an accepted social norm. If you didn’t have anything to moan about people would think there was something hideously wrong with you. It’s not real; it’s just a social custom. It makes us feel better.

I also think it’s important to note the correct order in which I listed things we like grumbling about. The weather definitely takes first place, followed very very closely by children.

Our lives would be hollow & devoid of meaning if we weren’t permitted to complain.

And queuing. Don't forget we like a good queue. Generally because it means we get to moan about how long it's taking, the weather, badly behaved kids......

My DP and IL say it used to be a lot worse when we were children.

My Mum struggled as the school wanted parents in for things but had no tolerance for younger siblings.

Most of my issues were in second location we lived with kids but even there the schools and dentists were good but hospitals and GP very awkward - I do think it was partly location there was an assumption there would be family child care help - and there was very little paid because most people did.

I know some appointments it's understandable but with second pg in different bit of country there were fine with older toddler but with third - location with limited childcare - every time I got a telling off for taking the older chidlren - DH couldn't get all that time off work - and they freqeuntly admitted my children were very well behaved ( long walk there food and comics) .

My GP was awkward around smears and asthma checks- DH booked time off appointments got cancelled then couldn't do in in nursury or school hours. Same with youngest HV checks had to be school pick up time.

Most places are fine with children - I think we only got refused service once because we had kids - primary school age - they didn't come out and say it but weren't open to us while offering to redo entire menu for couple in front - they lost severreral hundered pounds we'd planneded on spending last holiday meal out- and the couple in front went elsewhere as well.

Other than that it's odd people moaning though I did bf and while I had odd comment no one was that terrible it put me off .

Having said that I've enountered absolute pitas of other people's kids who were out of control and causing nuisance to others - think running round coffee shops with lost of hot drinks pestering us or others eating meals.

I remember one time by myself with our three quite for first and what turned out to be only time that day and I was exhausted and this child with table of 8 adults wouln't leave us alone- trying to eat our food wanting attention - - I had to take her back to her parents who then complained as they assumed I was a childminder - was that me being child unfriendly or dealing with CF.

Meh. OP can't be bothered to discuss which countries are apparently so much more kids friendly. Saying I've travelled all over Europe is hardly much of a a qualification. Who hasn't these days. Sounds more like someone wanting to vent having been criticised than have a proper discussion.

Only time I have been told off about breast feeding was on an American Airlines plane - next to DH and another DC, no one could see anything but the steward wasn't at all happy. The other option was a screaming baby.

I'm not a very strict parent in general but do expect if kids are in a restaurant they sit down and don't run around - when mine were little we soon learnt which places got the food out quickly.

I've always found people in Uk and Ireland to be friendly to my babies and children. I think the annoying thing is when parents sit back let them run riot and just say kids will be kids and don't consider anyone else.

I much prefer holidays/weddings etc which are a mix of all ages but we all have to take a bit of responsibility to make sure it is a good experience for everyone.

My Mum struggled as the school wanted parents in for things but had no tolerance for younger siblings.

When my DD was going to nursery (age 3) DS was newborn. There was an information evening for prospective parents. I asked if I could bring newborn DS and the headteachers sort of sighed and tutted and said if you must (or words to that effect) Considering the nursery was for 3-4 year olds it's not outrageous that many parents might also have newborn babies. The headteacher herself, seemed really bored and uninterested in the children and never got down to their level or looked them in the eye. Thankfully the staff that were their key workers were much more child-focussed and were great.

@Pigeonpocket

If you take your child to an 'adult' setting, they have to meet adult standards of behaviour.

That's the point though. In the UK, there are a lot more places that are considered "adult" settings than in other places where children are tolerated and even welcomed.
Restaurants at night, weddings, all sorts of places that in the UK lots of people think it's ridiculous or irritating for children to go to, is perfectly normal in other countries. They don't have this attitude that children being there automatically changes the vibe, or ruins it somehow. They accommodate children because they like being around them. And they don't get annoyed by children behaving like children because they aren't expecting silence and adult behaviour.

Exactly. Who decides what an adult setting is? They're usually just places for people, surely?

@bezabez OP

This post is complete nonsense.
You've said there's lots of judgment, whilst judging the entire UK.

You've said it doesn't matter where you're from, you've travelled all over Europe, but you've failed to give even a single example of a country you are comparing the UK to. Not one.

So you're argument is completely nonsense because you've given zero points of comparison so there is absolutely no way anybody except you can make a comparison between the UK and any one of the countries you're supposedly talking about.

This is not an argument, this is like a statement of faith that we're all somehow supposed to go along with or guess how to argue against?

Utter nonsense.

Your statement is pointless infalsifiable-by-design navel gazing judgment against everyone in the UK without any justification at all.

You may as well have made up a god and asked people to argue against its existence without telling us anything about it because "you don't need to tell us".

@Booboobadoo

I sometimes feel that children aren't valued as they're seen as 'women's things' and women aren't valued and are also excluded from formulating policy. This despite the fact that the majority of mothers also do paid work outside the home, so are involved in all facets of life. There does seem to be so much negativity about children and young people.

I agree with this; you see it in our local FB group when any problems must be caused by teens and their parents (mothers) should be ashamed.

In my experience it's the teens who know how to behave and the parents who have the entitled inconsiderate attitudes!

In the UK, there are a lot more places that are considered "adult" settings than in other places where children are tolerated and even welcomed

Suits me. I like peace and quiet. I don't need to hear screaming kids or Peppa Pig. However it is certainly true that so-called adults are louder than kids at times especially when they've been drinking for a bit.

When someone does one of these yawnsome "my nationalty's brilliant, UK people are all shit" posts you can always reply on someone throwing Londoners under the bus to try and distance themselves

@Glaskins

THERE IS PLENTY OF JUDGMENT BUT NO HELP PLENTY OF JUDGEMENT FROM YOU ABOUT UK PEOPLE.

^This

The post just sounds like a slur against British people in comparison to some unnamed other country(countries).

Why bring up Victoria? She died more than 100 years ago. The tone of attacking an entire country and giving no response when repeatedly asked what you're comparing it too strikes me as a little bit prejudiced towards that country.

YABU. Currently on a weekend away with DH and there are lots of children playing/laughing/shouting in the hotel outdoor pool. They are not ‘tolerated’, they have are guests like everyone else.

I was in Clark's shoe shop last week. Busy, stressful place at best of times just before schools go back.
2 primary school age children (think not from uk due to language spoken) were playing tig!
Mother, who was buying shoes for herself not the kids, was very mildly admonishing them.
Now I'm very happy to see kids running around playing and making plenty noise but they need to be taught where it's appropriate and where it isn't.

I could not agree more OP ! Dogs are treated better than children here.

I agree with you OP to some extent but I think the manners thing is a red herring, there are lots of cultures where children are expected to behave quite well, but also are liked a lot more and included in more things. In my husband's home country, babies and toddlers go out to dinner in the evenings with everyone, but they are often better behaved as they are used to it and there's more hands on deck. Children in his country (European but not Central) are fussed over more, taken more places, and integrated more into everyday life, plus men in their culture are used to playing with and having fun with children in a hands on way that people would find unthinkable here- I mean teenage boys would, if you were visiting a family, play with the little ones, which here would be unlikely and even raise eyebrows. I was once sitting on a plane and a twenty something man from that culture played peekaboo with my 12 month old for most of the three hour flight, again, not something a UK twentysomething man would do.

There are lots of facilities here for children, partly because parents hold a lot of economic power, but there isn't a lot of love for children IMO apart from within their own direct families.

@Crinkle77

My sisters ex was French/Algerian and he thought our attitude to children was strange especially how we pack our kids off to bed early.

But they have to get up early for school.

I think we have bedtimes right in the UK

@Glaskins

When someone does one of these yawnsome "my nationalty's brilliant, UK people are all shit" posts you can always reply on someone throwing Londoners under the bus to try and distance themselves

London is very different though - it should be state in it's own right really.

To balance things out, some things about having a small DC are definitely easier in the UK than in Italy (where I am from)...last time I took DS1 to Milan 3 years ago I don't think I managed to find a single baby change and had to keep changing him on toilet floors, very few lifts on the metro too. You don't always find high chairs either though restaurants will happily find you a mountain of cushions.

I would swap it for the heavily subsided nursery fees (about €200/€300 a month full time) and cheap private obstetric care all my cousins had though.

Sorry I live in England but I am not English and I hate it when we go on holiday and selfish parents let their children run amuck. Small toddlers running around the breakfast halls where the poor staff are dodging them holding hot coffees. Children shreeking while traditional dancers are performing - we were at one hotel where 3 children got on stage with the thai ladies dancing and the children's parents did nothing.
I am not sure where you live but if this is an issue for you you might want to move. Very child friendly in our village and a zillion holiday camps.