Why is UK so child unfriendly?

[bezabez]

Hi! I am foreign person living in the UK for the past 15 years.

I have noticed that the attitudes towards children are really strange in this country. Generally kids aren't accepted to be kids. They are expected to be quiet (ish) if out and about eg in a restaurant or a cafe, women don't breastfeed often in public (UK has the lowest rate of breastfeeding in the world) and they are expected 'to do as you're told' - that's a weird expression in itself tbh and to behave and never show a wild side. If on a train or other public spaces people tend not to engage with them even with babies (where I'm from there would be talking and smiling and general admirations) or tthey make faces, huffing and puffing etc if the children 'misbehave'.

Also parents complain A LOT about having children, sometimes as a form of a banter as these are socially acceptable jokes. Especially during the holidays.

On top of that there aren't many affordable childcare options or things like holiday camps and clubs (I know they exist in bigger cities sometimes but it isn't the same).

Overall it's no place for young people!

Does it come from the Victorian 'kids are to be seen not heard' thing?

Again where I'm from kids are celebrated as the future here they are mostly treated as inconvenience.

I don’t need anyone helping me to parent ds

But have found it lovely when strangers have made a fuss of him and my nieces when with them when we have traveled, helped me with my buggy if needed, held him while I went to the loo when travelling (on a long flight one women could want it to have a cuddle with ds while I snoozed as her children were stuck to their screens), taken off for a tour of the kitchen and helped cook our food, taken to help sail the boat - all these interactions have been enjoyed by ds and my nieces those strangers and myself

I just see that as interacting children break the ice adults can be like big kids again and are treated like little special beings because they are this attention doesn’t last forever

One of the reasons that breastfeeding might be higher in the UK is that mothers are given a actual free choice and many mothers do prefer to bottle feed. Is that so bad? New mothers must be made aware of the benefits of breastfeeding but they shouldn't be made to feel like failures if they don't.

Not really the point of the thread but can't you see that there's likely to be a cultural reason behind "many mothers do prefer to bottle feed"? 'Free choices' aren't made in a vacuum.

In parts of Asia, South America, North Africa and ME children are very much fussed over less expectations of them acting like little adults

We are not the friendliest or relaxed of cultures

@Glaskins

Children being expected behave in restaurants is far from unique to the UK. It's a good thing

Exactly.

I just don’t see this. I’ve just been for a wander around town and were stopped by about 5 different people who wanted to talk or coo at dc’s. Brought a savoury pastry type snack for kids at the market and the man gave us a free pot of hummus for the kids as he says they’d enjoy dipping it. About to go to a cafe by the beach which has a little area where children are always playing and running around whilst parents have their coffees and ours will be too! And I’m in the so ‘unfriendly’ south east too

Not my experience of the uk. My dc get spoken to, I breast fed them all in cafes and only ever had positive experiences (once an older lady kept looking over and I looked a not huffy but as she left she came over and told me how wonderful it was I was able to breast feed in a cafe and how she wished her baby years had been like that rather than hidden in a room feeling lonely - so actually it was me who judged her incorrectly).

With 3 dc I’ve taken them to London, people have given my dc seats on trains (much to mn horror but toddler twins and a 5yo trying to stand on a train is tricky and unsafe. I never asked for seats and mastered one seat, toddler tightly on each knee and an arm out holding dd1… only did that for moments before people - mostly young men - jumped up and insisted dc took their seat).

That said, my dc are polite and adults seem to happily chat to them. Paris was too much imo - random adults touching my dtds heads as they walk by. I felt uncomfortable with them touching my dc.

I’m from the south east and now in the south west so where are you that you’ve seen this?

So much of this perception about European culture comes from a couple of weeks a year spent in a naice bit of Provence or the Algarve. That's not real life.

Not mine as I said 2 European parents, one who is French.

And yes it would be unusual to take your child to Alain Ducasse in Paris or similar for dinner but I don't think anyone here is arguing it should be the norm for a child to rock up to Le Gavroche for the Menu Exceptionnel.

So much of this perception about European culture comes from a couple of weeks a year spent in a naice bit of Provence or the Algarve. That's not real life.

And yet on this very thread you can read so many of us who are not from the U.K., or have lived outside the U.K., saying otherwise.

@Fordian

A thing I have always found puzzling is how some European children and teenagers are almost wild yet many seem to grow into responsible adults!

Chris Stewart, the ex Genesis member who moved to Spain and whose DD grew up on their farm there remarks on this in his (entertaining) books.

I walk through a uni halls of residence on my way to work in the south of England, where they host a language school for 14-15 year olds every summer, and the noise! They are constantly leaning out of windows and shouting at each other; they cram the pavements forcing you out into the road; huge gangs of yelling, joshing kids (who all seem if I'm honest, younger than the 14-15 years I know them to be as I chat to the British leaders from time to time) and- the course leaders struggle to be heard above the din and the teenagers disinclination to listen.

A French YH hosting a French school trip was anarchy. The 12 year olds were running amok at 2am, not a teacher to be seen.

I guess I went to a girls GS where we would have been in serious trouble for 'letting the school down' if we'd behaved like that!

Yet, by and large, most European adults, to generalise, don't seem to be ill-disciplined or lacking in urge control.

Why is that?

Re your first para, about ‘wild’ children turning into responsible adults, while living within the Med. community I mentioned earlier, I had a neighbour whose two little boys were an absolute nightmare - constantly running wild, yelling, climbing on furniture, constantly throwing and breaking things. The mother just rolled her eyes, as if to say, ‘What can you do?’

This community was within the Middle East - we were all expats - and suddenly one day her two little horrors were gone!

‘Oh,’ she said, ‘I couldn’t cope - I sent them to my mother.’ Not for a holiday - this was for months on end! In that culture at the time, grandmothers were very often seen as slaves who’d cook, clean, and do virtually all your childcare.
A close friend of mine from that community told me she’d gone on holiday with her dh for a month, when her first baby was just a month old - and had left it with her mother.
No way could I ever have done that! But it was nothing unusual there.

Likewise, when my folks were due to visit, I was told by some of those women that I must be looking forward to a rest, since my DM would take over everything domestic, inc. childcare.
The notion that my DM was coming on holiday to enjoy herself, was entirely foreign to them!

My toddler gets lots of attention from strangers, I live in the South. Just the other day a lady helped him pick some apples from her tree and he was saying 'apple' and pointing at her tree. People are lovely.

I think I'm quite an approachable person, maybe that's why people feel comfortable to talk to him. Are you approachable OP?

We do have low breastfeeding statistics so I'll agree with you there.

And I also agree with previous posters about behaving in restaurants. If my toddler wants to have a wonder then we will go and have a walk around the restaurant, but I don't expect any screaming or crying and if he did, we would leave. It's not fair on everyone else and is just good manners.

I think the fact that people keep mentioning about having places to get away from kids is frankly weird. Would we say the same thing about wanting to get away from women or from old people etc etc. They are not a different specie

Perhaps try opening your mind to the possibility that you might not have that attitude and an expectation of quiet adult time if you had grown up in a culture where children were allowed in restaurants and you had done so yourself as a child.

I think though theres a difference between children being allowed in restaurants and children running around and being noisy.
I dont think its unreasonable to want a quiet meal with friends in a restaurant without children running around or shouting, but neither is it unreasonable to want to take the whole family out for a meal.But I dont think it's being child unfriendly to expect children to behave in a different way in a quiet restaurant than they would when playing in the woods with friends, for example.

In parts of Asia, South America, North Africa and ME children are very much fussed over less expectations of them acting like little adults

I think the main difference is expectation & I think in general the UK is less family oriented. So in the ME & many other parts of the world its completely normal to see big families out with multiple generations.

But why do so many prefer to bottle feed, I've never really understood

@amiadillo

So much of this perception about European culture comes from a couple of weeks a year spent in a naice bit of Provence or the Algarve. That's not real life.

Not mine as I said 2 European parents, one who is French.

And yes it would be unusual to take your child to Alain Ducasse in Paris or similar for dinner but I don't think anyone here is arguing it should be the norm for a child to rock up to Le Gavroche for the Menu Exceptionnel.

You say that, but a friend recently had dinner at the Fat Duck, The couple on the next table had brought a baby who promptly filled its nappy and screamed.

@Macncheeseballs

But why do so many prefer to bottle feed, I've never really understood

None of your business.

@Glaskins

Children being expected behave in restaurants is far from unique to the UK. It's a good thing

And in other countries they do behave, because it's expected of them.

And I am not interested in other people's children. That isn't because I'm British, it's because they are not interesting (to me). I like my own.

And I think it's probably true that bottled/mixed-fed babies sleep better. Mine was mixed fed and slept well.

But why do so many prefer to bottle feed, I've never really understood

It isn't always a preference. My baby didn't want to feed at all, so it was all about getting milk in any old how. Bottle, breast, spoon, cup, syringe - and I doubt that experience is particularly unique.

@Macncheeseballs

But why do so many prefer to bottle feed, I've never really understood

I've never bottlefed but I understand the attiraction of it. It's much easier to share feeds with a partner if you aren't reliant on boobs. Also much easier for childcare. Even though I breastfed I can't say I enjoyed it. My kids were great feeders but I didn't like it that much

@fhljhbskjn0

I think the fact that people keep mentioning about having places to get away from kids is frankly weird. Would we say the same thing about wanting to get away from women or from old people etc etc. They are not a different specie

I think if people are paying for a relaxing experience, be that a holiday, weekend break or a meal out, they are entitled to an adults only experience if that is what they want. Equally businesses are entitled to cater for this market if they wish.

@MissLucyEyelesbarrow because that anecdotal experience proves what?

Our car broke down in France & our insurance meant we were put up in a nice hotel. The hotel had a renowned michelin starred restaurant. I was very anxious about taking my 6 month dd there but we hadn't eaten & nothing else was available. The staff & other guests were so lovely & many came up to me when they had finished their meal to chat about dd & how calm she was (she slept mainly) And at breakfast the next morning when she had a bit of strop they all said to me so your child isn't a doll & actually behaves like a real baby.

@drpet49

* He breastfeeding rate is low because there’s crap all support in the early days for it*

^In my circle of friends those that gave up breastfeeding did so because they didn’t want to do night feeds and/or was convinced (by others experience) that baby would sleep better being bottle fed.

Very much my experience too.

Then a HV pointed out there was a point in the past during and just after the WW2 when bottle feeding was pushed to get women working. They even made milk 'National Dried Baby Powder' which was available up until the 70s.

Mums will listen to their mums and grandmother's.

As a result of that push to bottle feed, and feeding to a routine, so much knowledge and understanding of breastfeeding, cluster feeding, feeding on demand has been totally lost.

The message 'Breast is best' just doesn't cut it.
They need to get the message out that newborns are nocturnal, mums milk making hormones are highest at night, cluster feeding is normal and not a sign baby isn't getting enough, mums need a bit of support to run a house while getting feeding established, and recovering herself from the birth. Those first 6 weeks are really hard going.

Where are all these restaurants that posters go to where it's very quiet? I've been to many restaurants without a kid in sight & they are noisy & buzzy.

you're definitely asian lol

The story about the young man catching the toddler in Spain is lovely. In England there'd be a high probability of him being accused of being a pedophile for touching a child when he saved the child from a potential injury and pain. Men here are often treated as suspicious if they are friendly to kids that they don't know so if they saw a lost child, the first thing they'd do is alert a woman so they can help.

People here can get angry if women talk to kids too. You can tell by the number of threads asking if it's ok for other adults to talk to their child about something that the Mum didn't see something happen that some people are very suspicious of others. There is a thread about a mother verbally abusing her child and somebody said mind your own business.