Why is UK so child unfriendly?

[bezabez]

Hi! I am foreign person living in the UK for the past 15 years.

I have noticed that the attitudes towards children are really strange in this country. Generally kids aren't accepted to be kids. They are expected to be quiet (ish) if out and about eg in a restaurant or a cafe, women don't breastfeed often in public (UK has the lowest rate of breastfeeding in the world) and they are expected 'to do as you're told' - that's a weird expression in itself tbh and to behave and never show a wild side. If on a train or other public spaces people tend not to engage with them even with babies (where I'm from there would be talking and smiling and general admirations) or tthey make faces, huffing and puffing etc if the children 'misbehave'.

Also parents complain A LOT about having children, sometimes as a form of a banter as these are socially acceptable jokes. Especially during the holidays.

On top of that there aren't many affordable childcare options or things like holiday camps and clubs (I know they exist in bigger cities sometimes but it isn't the same).

Overall it's no place for young people!

Does it come from the Victorian 'kids are to be seen not heard' thing?

Again where I'm from kids are celebrated as the future here they are mostly treated as inconvenience.

@ofwarren

But why does your child need attention, and why would you expect that? I find that a bit weird to be honest. Children aren't pets, they are human beings and don't need to be fawned over by strangers.

Agree with this - why would anyone want a bunch of strangers peering at and poking around with their baby/child?

Do you really expect strangers to be enamoured and interested in your children OP?

I just can't see an issue with this, I'm afraid . If you take your child to an 'adult' setting, they have to meet adult standards of behaviour. Those standards are there for a reason - to keep everyone safe and to make sure everyone can have a pleasant experience.

Adult standard of behaviour? We seem to tolerate lower standards in adults 😆

I don’t remember museums having anywhere near as many dedicated events and sensory/play areas as they do now; parks are much better equipped, especially for toddlers; little pump tracks and skate/scoot parks are in more places; more emphasis on nature, things like forest schools and outdoor activities have become more popular. Places like the National Trust have generally got a decent outdoor area and more child-friendly interpretation at their properties.

I agree, I’ve visited a few castles and such recently and they all went out of their way to be interesting to children. Good on the .

In fact the U.K. does not have the lowest rates of breastfeeding in Europe let alone the world. France and Ireland have lower rates than the U.K. Many of my French friends say they felt pressured to breastfeed in the U.K. but it just wasn’t their thing. I would agree that in Southern Europe people are more outwardly positive about babies and small kids. My boys were positively love bombed in Spain and Greece when they were little.

If you take your child to an 'adult' setting, they have to meet adult standards of behaviour.

That's the point though. In the UK, there are a lot more places that are considered "adult" settings than in other places where children are tolerated and even welcomed.
Restaurants at night, weddings, all sorts of places that in the UK lots of people think it's ridiculous or irritating for children to go to, is perfectly normal in other countries. They don't have this attitude that children being there automatically changes the vibe, or ruins it somehow. They accommodate children because they like being around them. And they don't get annoyed by children behaving like children because they aren't expecting silence and adult behaviour.

Why the fuck should a stranger want or have to parent your child OP?

Did you read the same OP? where did the OP suggest others should parent her dc?

I think in the Uk people people make a distinction between child friendly and everything else. As some PP said - there are childfriendly cafes etc etc etc. I dont think such a thing exists in Europe. There isnt such a clear demarcation of space/place/time. Kids are welcomed everywhere. So you dont get the same level of complaining about kids going out for dinner with their parents to a nice place - I mean where else should they be going? Similarly - what on earth is a kids menu. Why why why do Brits assume that kids should eat junk food while adults have decent food.

In Europe, life is more communal - people go out together. Everything isn't quite so split into time/place/generation of appropriateness i.e. this is a kid place, this is a young person place, this is for middle-aged people and their families - no idea where those places exist for the old folk, I think they are mostly meant to be staying indoors.

The UK is a lot more atomized as a culture so am not surprised. Most people don't live near their families so even inter-generational life outside the house is not as frequent as elsewhere.

A thing I have always found puzzling is how some European children and teenagers are almost wild yet many seem to grow into responsible adults!

Chris Stewart, the ex Genesis member who moved to Spain and whose DD grew up on their farm there remarks on this in his (entertaining) books.

I walk through a uni halls of residence on my way to work in the south of England, where they host a language school for 14-15 year olds every summer, and the noise! They are constantly leaning out of windows and shouting at each other; they cram the pavements forcing you out into the road; huge gangs of yelling, joshing kids (who all seem if I'm honest, younger than the 14-15 years I know them to be as I chat to the British leaders from time to time) and- the course leaders struggle to be heard above the din and the teenagers disinclination to listen.

A French YH hosting a French school trip was anarchy. The 12 year olds were running amok at 2am, not a teacher to be seen.

I guess I went to a girls GS where we would have been in serious trouble for 'letting the school down' if we'd behaved like that!

Yet, by and large, most European adults, to generalise, don't seem to be ill-disciplined or lacking in urge control.

Why is that?

Again where I'm from kids are celebrated as the future here they are mostly treated as inconvenience.

How exactly are they "celebrated"?

@Pigeonpocket I don't think some posters realise that their responses confirm what the OP is saying 😆

Personally I would hate strangers coming over all the time to fuss about my DC. I don't think it is appropriate for kids to be loud and screaming all the time. I've never battled to get my DC in bed by 6 but neither do i want them in a restaurant beyond 8ish because they have to be up early the next day.

The reason some other countries seem so family friendly in the later evening is because there has been hours in the afternoon were kids have been expected to be indoors or having naps. This is to do with the weather as much as any 'family friendly' culture

Balonzette : agree 100 percent with you !

A vote as well for Italy where they treated my son like a king wherever we went and on a separate occasion they were lovely with my elderly mother. They do go the extra mile !

English people can be very reserved and a hard read at times. Totally get the poster’s comments.

Comparing to where I have lived abroad....

I think in the UK there seems to be a division between 'family/ kid space' and space for everyone else. Maybe this is partly due to the drinking culture here. In countries where there is more of a late night cafe culture you have kids running around. As a single parent at the time it was much easier to still have a life and socialise.

I also think in the UK many parents don't pick their battles. Where I previously lived parents would be extremely strict (to the point of smacking them which I didn't like), but only about certain things. A child might get a massive telling off for swearing, but they wouldn't be told off for running around making noise, as I see they are here for example. There wasn't so much strictness with routines and sleeping alone.

Finally, where I was living abroad there was far more extended family/ community input into raising kids - the downside being there was less tolerance of 'differences' in kids. Here I feel you are expected to keep/ deal with your children within your nuclear family set up.

Personally I find the culture around kids in the UK pretty miserable but I've always made an effort to challenge it.

It was seriously impressive. He didn't even have to think. Over here, people might think "Oh that kid's going to fall" but there's somehow an instinct not to touch other people's kids or get involved. But that guy, it was clearly second nature to him to watch out for kids (any kid) and he instinctively knew how to catch him before he fell. We really felt the culture difference that day (and were grateful, obviously)

You may have been grateful, but many UK parents would have been furious. Look at all the threads on MN complaining that elderly women have touched a baby's cheek in the supermarket, and similar outrages.

A few years ago, I was in a queue at a station, next to a fatherly-looking middle-aged man and his wife. The toddler of the woman in front of them fell over and landed with her head on the man's shoe. The toddler's mother was juggling a baby , several bags and her train tickets, so had no hand immediately free. The man had to choose between leaving the toddler lying on his foot, or picking her up. He picked her up, touching only her arms and with very brief contact. Her mother was absolutely furious at him for touching her.

This is why Brits hesitate to interact with, or help, young children.

@Pigeonpocket

If you take your child to an 'adult' setting, they have to meet adult standards of behaviour.

That's the point though. In the UK, there are a lot more places that are considered "adult" settings than in other places where children are tolerated and even welcomed.
Restaurants at night, weddings, all sorts of places that in the UK lots of people think it's ridiculous or irritating for children to go to, is perfectly normal in other countries. They don't have this attitude that children being there automatically changes the vibe, or ruins it somehow. They accommodate children because they like being around them. And they don't get annoyed by children behaving like children because they aren't expecting silence and adult behaviour.

But where then would adults go for a quiet relaxing meal on an evening? If you’re suggesting that all restaurants should be there for both adults and children at night, where are those of us supposed to dine if we just want a nice meal, with nice company and conversation, without children racing round the place, shrieking and crying?

Yes this!

This thread is interesting, it makes me think of this book “Hunt, Gather, Parent” I just read. It studies some hunter gatherer communities and their parenting styles and one thing that comes out is that in those societies children are treated as children but integrated (in age appropriate ways) into the adult world and adult work. So that they gradually grow into responsible members of the community. Versus many Western societies where children are expected to act like adults in many ways but also segmented into child-centric activities, where they are essentially taught that their “role” is to be entertained. So this doesn’t set them up for being a contributing member of society. I didn’t agree with everything but it was good food for thought.

But where then would adults go for a quiet relaxing meal on an evening? If you’re suggesting that all restaurants should be there for both adults and children at night, where are those of us supposed to dine if we just want a nice meal, with nice company and conversation, without children racing round the place, shrieking and crying?

Perhaps try opening your mind to the possibility that you might not have that attitude and an expectation of quiet adult time if you had grown up in a culture where children were allowed in restaurants and you had done so yourself as a child.

I don’t think not having every single place as set up for children makes it not child friendly as a country. Infact I think having boundaries in place so people who want a quiet child free evening know where there won’t be children.

As for the previous comment about other countries being friendlier because people give their children presents. I have had many occasions where strangers have come to DS when he was younger and place a pound in his hand or whatever.

Ds is disabled and yea some people are frightfully ignorant but on the whole people are fantastic and very tolerant

I think in the Uk people people make a distinction between child friendly and everything else. As some PP said - there are childfriendly cafes etc etc etc. I dont think such a thing exists in Europe. There isnt such a clear demarcation of space/place/time. Kids are welcomed everywhere. So you dont get the same level of complaining about kids going out for dinner with their parents to a nice place - I mean where else should they be going?

That's a tourist fantasy. Of course, restaurants in tourist areas are welcoming, because they know that tourist families don't have local babysitting options. Try taking a small child to dinner in a posh restaurant in Paris or Milan, and see how that goes for you...

So much of this perception about European culture comes from a couple of weeks a year spent in a naice bit of Provence or the Algarve. That's not real life.

it is just a cultural difference and for those of us who like our culture we need to fight hard to preserve it otherwise we will find noisy children spoiling things until very late including for parents who have their own children in bed by then and that is just not on.

I've four kids (now adults) and I've live in 4 countries with them. I think things are good for kids in the UK. I breastfed all my kids in public and never ever had a funny look in any of the countries!

Kids should be well behaved in restaurants - being well behaved doesn't mean they can't also have lots of fun.

I found kids in the US could be quite loud and bratty in restaurants compared with the UK.
One of the reasons that breastfeeding might be higher in the UK is that mothers are given a actual free choice and many mothers do prefer to bottle feed. Is that so bad? New mothers must be made aware of the benefits of breastfeeding but they shouldn't be made to feel like failures if they don't.

@Pippapet

On holiday in Spain, we were enjoying evening dinner at a pavement restaurant (the sort which is a very wide pavement, a boulevard??), when our then 4 year old dropped his bouncy ball and rushed to chase it across the pavement, but tripped and was literally flying through the air when a passing 20 something, a very cool Spanish guy who was walking down the pavement with a friend, just swooped without breaking his stride and plucked my DS up and swung him up before he hit the deck. Set DS down on his feet, waved to us and continued on all without stopping.

It was seriously impressive. He didn't even have to think. Over here, people might think "Oh that kid's going to fall" but there's somehow an instinct not to touch other people's kids or get involved. But that guy, it was clearly second nature to him to watch out for kids (any kid) and he instinctively knew how to catch him before he fell. We really felt the culture difference that day (and were grateful, obviously).

Wow. Wherever this was in Spain, I want to move there immediately. I think you've summed it up perfectly - that would not have happened in the UK, north or south.

@MissLucyEyelesbarrow

I think in the Uk people people make a distinction between child friendly and everything else. As some PP said - there are childfriendly cafes etc etc etc. I dont think such a thing exists in Europe. There isnt such a clear demarcation of space/place/time. Kids are welcomed everywhere. So you dont get the same level of complaining about kids going out for dinner with their parents to a nice place - I mean where else should they be going?

That's a tourist fantasy. Of course, restaurants in tourist areas are welcoming, because they know that tourist families don't have local babysitting options. Try taking a small child to dinner in a posh restaurant in Paris or Milan, and see how that goes for you...

So much of this perception about European culture comes from a couple of weeks a year spent in a naice bit of Provence or the Algarve. That's not real life.

Good point

As a youngish single parent who was working and studying full time, the way I dealt with my unexpected baby was largely by integrating him into my life in the way I experienced when abroad - extended breastfeeding, co-sleeping, taking him out in the evenings and to conferences and mixing with other adults, limited time for kid specific activities, generally having to be relaxed parent and pick my battles....

I still don't know if this makes me an awful parent, but he is a very happy outgoing little boy and I am a happy mum.

Is everyone assuming the OP is European? Sorry if I missed something.