Why is UK so child unfriendly?

[bezabez]

Hi! I am foreign person living in the UK for the past 15 years.

I have noticed that the attitudes towards children are really strange in this country. Generally kids aren't accepted to be kids. They are expected to be quiet (ish) if out and about eg in a restaurant or a cafe, women don't breastfeed often in public (UK has the lowest rate of breastfeeding in the world) and they are expected 'to do as you're told' - that's a weird expression in itself tbh and to behave and never show a wild side. If on a train or other public spaces people tend not to engage with them even with babies (where I'm from there would be talking and smiling and general admirations) or tthey make faces, huffing and puffing etc if the children 'misbehave'.

Also parents complain A LOT about having children, sometimes as a form of a banter as these are socially acceptable jokes. Especially during the holidays.

On top of that there aren't many affordable childcare options or things like holiday camps and clubs (I know they exist in bigger cities sometimes but it isn't the same).

Overall it's no place for young people!

Does it come from the Victorian 'kids are to be seen not heard' thing?

Again where I'm from kids are celebrated as the future here they are mostly treated as inconvenience.

Us English just love something to moan about, as a nation we are just miserable fuckers.

My parents are European & I do some truth in what she says.

The U.K. is very child friendly, no idea what you’re talking about, perhaps you haven’t travelled much. The people who complain about the U.K. not being child friendly are the ones who let their children behave badly.

This. I've lived and worked in many countries and in all of them well behaved children were welcomed everywhere and badly behaved children weren't. Of course it's not the children who are judged, but the parents who can't be arsed to parent them.

Us English just love something to moan about, as a nation we are just miserable fuckers

very true

Us English just love something to moan about, as a nation we are just miserable fuckers.

They like to judge

@OhSmellyCatSmellyCat

Ah come on, who else is waiting for 'A waiter tried to snatch and hug my child AIBU?' thread

Would a waitress or three do?

Use to happen to my DD when she was under one. (In London!) The staff would them be told off by their manager for cuddling her. We thought it was funny as it clearly cheered the staff up.

Taking my kids out now, I also think there’s huge improvement in what was around for kids when I was younger (born ‘85).

I don’t remember museums having anywhere near as many dedicated events and sensory/play areas as they do now; parks are much better equipped, especially for toddlers; little pump tracks and skate/scoot parks are in more places; more emphasis on nature, things like forest schools and outdoor activities have become more popular. Places like the National Trust have generally got a decent outdoor area and more child-friendly interpretation at their properties.

I hate what’s going on in this country politically, I really do - but I wouldn’t consider the UK not child-friendly

I'm also from another country (Germany) and while I agree with some of your points (the availability of good, reliable, affordable childcare is top of my list) i disagree with others. I've had two babies in the UK (one in London, one in Kent) and have always had people cooing over them and interacting with them. I've breastfed both in public many times and have never had a single negative comment or strange look. I find children in the UK generally polite and well behaved and wouldn't like noisy children on trains or in restaurants. One thing i have noticed is the almost complete absence of children playing outside by themselves or with friends. I used to roam around the village with other children when I was as young as 6 or 7, and this was completely normal.

Making faces and smiling at random babies is not everyone’s idea of being nice. This expectation that you have to engage with other people’s children is ridiculous. People should not be made to feel bad for not being all gaga over other people’s children.
Also there is a difference between children being themselves and outright bratty behaviour. People out and about in public spaces should not have to put up with it. People with poor parenting skills will excuse it as children being children. People with no children and well behaved ones should not have to put up with this in public spaces.

@amiadillo

Many people do have an issue with bf. Some equate it to poohing in public! I mean how do you get to that way of thinking?!

This is ridiculous isn’t it - removing stinky waste products from your body is considered the same as a tiny human eating their lunch. Absolutely insane

Agreed OP. Was talking on a forum within UK mum's recently who were horrified at how the UK makes children wear uniforms to school at age 4.

@bezabez

About the restaurant etc it's exactly this attitude I'm talking about- they are expected to behave to be convenient to others. Yes it's important to teach them respect and table manners but it's the adults responses that I don't get, surely as an adult you know that children are they own people with their own personalities, emotions etc so won't always behave to adult standards!

THERE IS PLENTY OF JUDGMENT BUT NO HELP.

Even when you're flying there will be people complaining about babies crying. Yes it isn't pleasant to listen to but I'm sure it's even worse for the parents.

IMO they are expected to be mini adults and not really children.

Help? You want other people to put up children behaving badly and disturbing other diners in a restaurant. And you want other people to help you when your baby is crying on a plane? Why such entitlement? Why should they, if they don’t want to? Why should they be ok to not be able to have meal in peace because a child is not taught to behave well. A restaurant in not a playground.

YANBU, UK culture is generally more intolerant of children than other places.

It's not about baby changes and highchairs (which just shows what most people think being child friendly is!) it's about attitudes to children behaving like children.

It seems like in the UK, children are expected to switch to "mini adult" mode whenever they're around adults. In other places that just isn't the case, people are more accepting that children are children.

@DanielTigersMummy21

Agreed OP. Was talking on a forum within UK mum's recently who were horrified at how the UK makes children wear uniforms to school at age 4.

Oh the horror. Imagine this kind of tyranny against children anywhere else. Come on, can you see the hyperbole? There is a good reason for uniforms, not least because it takes the pressure off children for wanting to look a certain way.

I do agree with you OP!

And I’ve not read the full thread, but I see that @Pigeonpocket has made the same point I was going to. In the U.K. there is an assumption that if you provide enough “stuff” then it will make the inconvenience of children go away. In most other countries people just like children more and so don’t need the paraphernalia.

My DC’s nursery had a little uniform from 2! It certainly did not stifle her creativity or personality

There are definitely cultural differences in how children are interacted with and expected to behave in different countries… I’m not sure why this would be a surprise.

But I think your insinuation that we just want our kids to be mini adults is wildly unfair (and people definitely do interact with my baby on a daily basis when we are out and about).

I think we just tend to have a more separate definition of child friendly vs adult spaces. Having lots of children in the family, we often eat at restaurants geared towards families. Anyone complaining of loud children there would get confused looks. However, if I go to a fancy adult restaurant, I’d rather not hear children playing loudly.

Learning to consider other people’s feelings is important for children’s development and being quiet on occasion is a good way to practice that skill. Plus It’s just nice to have a break sometimes 🤷‍♀️.

We also tend to have a wide range of things geared specifically to children. For example, on any given week I usually attend a couple of baby classes, play parks, cafes, and child centred museums/farms/aquariums etc.

In all those places children are expected to be their fun loving selves! Yes, a lack of affordable childcare is a problem but this is not a reflection on how most people view children.

In terms of complaining about our children, this is partly just a symptom of a generally self deprecating sense of humour, and partly a very wise habit of acknowledging that sometimes being a parent is hard. This means that when someone is struggling, instead of just assuming they are a bad parent, they can see that they’re not alone.

I see lots of women breastfeeding in public. Of course children need to behave in public - start teaching them young how to be considerate around others. Allowing your child to run riot in a restaurant, and shriek, might make it child friendly, but the restaurant would be out of business pretty quickly. Even people with children, don’t want to sit amongst badly behaved children. Strangers tend not to engage with children as much as they used to, as many parents are paranoid about paedophiles running off with their children, so obviously are ultra sensitive about a stranger being interested in their DCs. As far as the banter thing, that’s just what it is - banter. Having a sense of humour gets you the trying times. Possibly, if you’re a different culture, you don’t ‘get it’. I do agree though about affordable child care. What is available is either far too expensive, or over subscribed.

I agree OP. When we were abroad with our babies/toddlers people would swoop in to make our lives easier rather than judging us - small things like waitresses holding the baby so my husband and I could actually eat. In the UK we mollycoddle children so they are safe physically but we don't let them express themselves emotionally.

Why the fuck should a stranger want or have to parent your child OP?

You had the kid, it’s your job to parent it when on a plane or in a restaurant, or anywhere else for that matter.

I had some random woman give my 6yr old kid a cake treat when he was having a tantrum in a car park and I was bloody livid with her for interfering.

we, the adults, have a different mindset towards y oung children - which is demonstrated in many of the posts here. We don't want to see young children in restaurants late at night. If they are in restaurants or anywhere else, we expect them to be quiet. We would judge bad parenting or badly behaved children and have higher expectations of behaviour than you would see in many places on the continent. There are lots of posts saying children get too tired and need to eat early. Or that they shouldn't run around.

I think that's a valid point. We do expect children to be quieter and calmer and in bed earlier than they do in other countries.

I just can't see an issue with this, I'm afraid . If you take your child to an 'adult' setting, they have to meet adult standards of behaviour. Those standards are there for a reason - to keep everyone safe and to make sure everyone can have a pleasant experience.

I think some of it comes down to parents not wanting to change their lifestyles because they have children. So they still want to go to museums or galleries or have long meals out in the evening and they don't want the children to get in the way of that. But it's for the parents to make sure that they don't put their children in a situation where they're expecting too much of them, not for everyone around them to put up with their kids being noisy or running around. I've taken my 3 year old out to afternoon tea in a nice hotel before and it worked because we were in and out within an hour, the cakes and sandwiches kept them busy and I pre-paid the bill so we didn't have a long wait at the end. I wouldn't take them to a museum exhibit that wasn't aimed at children or for a meal out that was longer than an hour or so (unless there was a play area) because that would be an unreasonable expectation on them, they would start to play up and people round about would be justifiably annoyed. Similarly, we have been to children's theatre performances where they've been expected to sit quietly in their seat, but those usually last around 45 minutes and have plenty of audience interaction. I wouldn't take them to a full-length show because they couldn't cope with it.

I think it’s partly the fault of U.K. parents though who have made it anathema to talk to, let alone even gently tell off their child where needed so now people are scared to even look at another person’s kid!

I agree and I think it’s such a shame. I’m more than happy for people to interact with my DC and tell them off if they misbehave (they listen to strangers better). I reprimand kids in playgrounds and soft play when they’re doing something dangerous or against the rules, or pushing into queues.

A woman once told me off for gently telling her child to wait at the top of the slide until mine had got off (he was about to slide so there would have been a collision). She said angrily ‘I can parent my own child thanks’
My reply ‘but you didn’t did you?’ (She’d been on her phone when I stepped in). She unleashed a furious rant at me. I pointed out it was for both kids safety, but she still didn’t get it.

So you put up what is really a nasty post, won’t tell us what country you are from and then argue when we try and put our view point across

If you are basing your thoughts on Mumsnet, then that’s the minority of people in this country.

If you are basing your thoughts on your observations when out and about then I think you are the sad one as I am pretty sure in the majority of times kids will be allowed to be free to be themselves, but with an expectation that they would not be badly behaved, because everyone is entitled to enjoy themselves and no one, not even in your own country would want to sit at a meal with kids screaming at the top of their voices and running round knocking into them being ‘free’

As to breastfeeding in public lots I know haven’t had a problem, but all have done it discreetly and you wouldn’t really have known

Apart from when we were in Italy and strangers thought they could touch DD's face or pinch her cheek without invitation, I have seen no difference at all between Europe and the UK.

I 100% agree! I had NO idea how unfriendly the UK was towards children until I moved abroad where

1. everyone stops and talks to passing children and babies and even gives them little gifts and plays with them etc

2. children are welcome anywhere, at any time: there is no cut off point where children are suddenly not welcome (like in the UK where people keel over with horror if a child enters a restaurant after 7pm) and there are no places they aren't welcome either. In fact, restaurant staff are usually thrilled about a kid coming in (especially babies!) and often will take the kids and cuddle them/play with them while you eat!

3. Children are up a lot later here as there's a culture for 2 hour long afternoon naps, so kids go to bed later. People don't think kids need a crazy early bedtime and find it odd when I say parents in the UK battle to get their kids to bed between 6-8pm. Kids here will eat with the family and then hang out with the family and then go to bed around 9 or even a little later - they're very much a part of everything and not like in the UK where its like - kids dinner, kids strict bedtime routines, kids MUST be asleep super early, and then adults dinner and adults alone time.

4. Nobody ever expects children to be quiet and on the odd occasion where my child has been a bit loud and I've apologised for it, people have thought I was crazy to apologise becayse children are MEANT to be loud, they're children. And children's noise isn't like cringed about like it is in the UK, but people just laugh or smile understandingly or come over to cheer up the child.

It's lovely having kids here. I don't plan to go back to the UK until mine are teens and I won't have to follow strict British child rules like asleep by 6PM and silent at all times and never letting them go anywhere where other adults might be