To not want an awake child around at 11pm when I'm on holiday PART DEUX

[FrangipaniDeLaSqueegeeMop]

First thread

http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/amiibeingunreasonable/4332702-to-not-want-an-awake-child-around-at-11pm-when-i-m-on-holiday

I don’t think the OP was drinking excessively - more than usual perhaps but we all do things differently on holiday, which is why the whole thing is a bit sad really. I am surprised she let the friend and Alyssa confront her DD, who like a lot of MN children, calmly knew exactly how to respond, and put them in their place.

I think perhaps for all her online persona suggests otherwise the OP perhaps isn’t very good at confrontation and the thread has become a Barbour coat pantomime which is fine for those who enjoy it except when the subject of the mockery is an eight year old it’s a bit uncomfortable really.

OP went out last night because her friend and her daughter had behaved atrociously. She was well within her rights to not want to spend any more of her time with them.

But you just know if the friend had done the whole taking the kids and drinking in the pub till 11 thing, you guys would be all over it. 🤣

@HailAdrian

OP went out last night because her friend and her daughter had behaved atrociously. She was well within her rights to not want to spend any more of her time with them.

But you just know if the friend had done the whole taking the kids and drinking in the pub till 11 thing, you guys would be all over it. 🤣

Sounds more like a family friendly pub/restaurant thing with other kids on holiday there. Plus, it was a Saturday.

A far cry from a Tuesday night at home at the local shepherd neame

Holy shit, that meltdown sounded epic! Your daughter handled it so well, OP.

The best possible outcome would be if DF realised that her parenting style is causing many problems for her DC and got some support to change this. It will be increasingly awful for Alyssa as she gets older and still expects everyone to bow to her sense of superiority. Her narcissistic traits can be redirected now while she's still young, but at some point, it's going to be impossible to teach her anything. Really hoping that this experience is a learning one for them.

It sounds like the friendship might be done, though. Sorry, OP

To all those PP wagging their fingers at OP drinking wine. All of her posts have been spot on in regards to her written English. She’s got up on time, packed a car and got out of the house. Having a few and being spirited (happy or irate) is very different to having a few and being incapable.

@torchh so? My point is, had her friend done the same, you'd all be tearing strips off her because it'd be one more example of bad parenting. You know that, of course.

I don't understand what your friend expects - her DD wants to be first, but she's been first all holiday. Can't she see that the other children also want to be first sometimes, and that's ok?

Or does friend want Alyssa to always win everything and always be first to do everything, and none of her friends should ever get to have a turn?

Like @berryfull I too thought of Pathological Demand Avoidance.
I know of one child with it and the parents were in denial for a long time, sadly , so the child didn't get the specialist help needed.
The child was fine with other children her friends ( her friends would be not neurotypical, she and more neurotypical children would be distant from each other ) but with adults it was a very different situation.
Huge tantrums if she didn't get her own way.
It not easy for the parents, the child or other people around them.

We only have the OP's account of this whole sorry affair. She's hardly an impartial bystander.

@MrsDooDaa

We only have the OP's account of this whole sorry affair. She's hardly an impartial bystander.

So what. In life we generally only ever get one side of the story.

I've read both threads, and I feel for you, because missing out on adult time you had been looking forward to in the evenings sucks, particularly when it is being indulged by the other adult via card games and cartoons.

As the ND parent of ND children, one diagnosed with insomnia at age 6 (and who is now 10), some of the stuff you said reads to me like Alyssa may be neurodivergent. Meltdowns, not going to sleep (outside of the holiday time and routine change as well), the whole thing of needing to be first, and for things to be done a certain way. (also the sibling's thing with the colour of the plate).
ND type insomnia can not be cured by being firm. Trust me, I tried EVERYTHING. however, we still set rules and boundaries, and manage to at least get a few nights where the child just stays upstairs playing on whatever device or reading or having ridiculous ideas and executing them exploring.

We follow a gentle path-of-least-resistance type parenting approach designed to minimise autistic/adhd meltdowns or over stimulation, but we also teach our children about how to negotiate the rest of the world, and it seems like your friend may be struggling with how to do this.

Also, you can absolutely be neurodivergent and still an arsehole, so I'm not saying that you should let your friend her Alyssa off for all of that (I'd be particularly pissed off about the last day air cushion incident in your shoes, it sounds like your DD handled it excellently), but if your friendship does survive this, it may be worth asking your friend if she's ever considered that Alyssa may have ADHD or something.
Girls with adhd are often missed because they don't look like the squirmy, fidgety boys with it, and early diagnosis absolutely saves lives. Take it from someone who knows.

You have far more tolerance than me! What an absolute shitshow! At the point of her and DD confronting my DD, I would have had to have pulled my friend to one side and spoken to her about the rod she is making for herself and the entitled attitude of her DD is nothing to be proud of!

Sadly, this behaviour is becoming more and more common... and every time I identify a child with this type of personality and behaviour, it’s easy to see why they behave the way they do when you spend 10 seconds with their parent(s). These kids are completely indulged and the parents are too scared to say ‘no’. Can you imagine the state of our society in 20 years time... it’s a scary thought!!!

[quote HailAdrian]@torchh so? My point is, had her friend done the same, you'd all be tearing strips off her because it'd be one more example of bad parenting. You know that, of course.[/quote]
But doing the same would be to decide, proactively “Right - we are going to go to the pub. You kids can play while the mums chat.” And I don’t think anyone would have a problem with that on a holiday Saturday, from whomever the suggestion came. The problem comes with letting the child wheedle and connive and control circumstances. So you’re right - if Alyssa had said “I don’t want to go to bed, let’s all go down the pub” and her mother had agreed, that would’ve been pathetic parenting. But it’s not what happened here. The OP made a decision to change her plans based on circumstances and her kids adapted to that.

@DifferentHair

Another one struggling to understand how a cheer squad formed.

Imagine the opposite 'I've gone on holiday with a friend and her children. She's been drinking excessively by herself every night. She disappeared last night and I discovered later she was out drinking with some people we just met while her poor children fell asleep in a pub. She's since come home and I can hear her stomping around drunk, knocking over my daughters toys and bitching about my parenting on the internet. AIBU or is she not perfect in every way as she seems to believe?'

Well then 'she' would be leaving out a significant portion of the tale 🤣

I have been following both threads - OP, I am sorry your holiday turned out like this. I was a single Mum for years so I get how gutted you must be for your longed for holiday to turn out like this. Also an ex teacher and have one child with ASD - it doesn’t matter if Alyssa isn’t NT, she still needs boundaries, consistency and to hear ‘no’. As so many others have said, your friend is helping create someone who will struggle in adulthood when things don’t go their way.
I have family members who have struggled to impose any sort of boundaries and their teens are finding social connections with their peers so tough.
So and I hope the drive home is ok.

@HailAdrian we wouldn’t say, omg she’s gone to the pub with her kids that’s more bad parenting. We’d say, why has she gone off to have fun at the pub when for the last 2 nights she’s ruined OPs holiday?

Op please start a new thread before this fills up. It would be interesting to find out if your friend has had any chance at self relflection.

@FrangipaniDeLaSqueegeeMop can I get the details of your accommodation as well please? Sounds great fun minus the mental mate.

Yes, partie trois needed

@FrangipaniDeLaSqueegeeMop but I thought they had to be put to bed on time! Sorry there probably is a cultural element involved as kids are banned from pubs here after 9pm, pretty much to prevent alcoholics dragging them there while they drink, so to me it’s just really weird. I understand it must be a little different if there’s a kids area. I couldn’t relax in a pub with a 5 year old, they still need reasonable supervision, and I would hate people judging me too! If you’re fine with kids up to 11pm in a pub it also makes even less sense why the 8/9 year olds had to be put to bed rather than left to entertain themselves in the relative safety of the cottage (v a pub) til a little later.

@HailAdrian

Well, that's certainly a different 'spin' on the story as told by the OP, who is there... Have you ever considered politics?

It's not untrue though. Plus, OP's made out that her kids can do no wrong but we all secretly know that's bollocks.

Of course it's bollocks and they're being foul today (yes I know my fault for keeping them up) they just aren't Alyssa's and they like to sleep 🤷‍♀️

@Puppalicious I thought the same thing too, you’re not alone!

[quote Puppalicious]@FrangipaniDeLaSqueegeeMop but I thought they had to be put to bed on time! Sorry there probably is a cultural element involved as kids are banned from pubs here after 9pm, pretty much to prevent alcoholics dragging them there while they drink, so to me it’s just really weird. I understand it must be a little different if there’s a kids area. I couldn’t relax in a pub with a 5 year old, they still need reasonable supervision, and I would hate people judging me too! If you’re fine with kids up to 11pm in a pub it also makes even less sense why the 8/9 year olds had to be put to bed rather than left to entertain themselves in the relative safety of the cottage (v a pub) til a little later.[/quote]
It's been explained so many times.

Wimpole, you're kidding yourself if you're saying no one here would say anything negative about the 'villain' of the story drinking to the point of being drunk, while in charge of the kids. Anyway, this thread is silly. I don't get all the fawning over a stranger on the internet but some people will always want to be part of the 'in crowd' I suppose.

we wouldn’t say, omg she’s gone to the pub with her kids that’s more bad parenting. We’d say, why has she gone off to have fun at the pub when for the last 2 nights she’s ruined OPs holiday?

Sure