Afghanistan

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More US troops killed today than over the last 4 years . Pulling put has cost more deaths of US troops than staying there.
Afghans now being slaughtered.
Massive fail from Biden following Trumps pull out.

Very, very 😔

I agree goldenbear. Either chaosrabbitland is a troll or someone with no sensitivity or decency whatsoever

@Goldenbear

The comparison of human lives to rabbits is really crass on a thread about the loss of human life that has already occurred in such a violent way and the loss of human lives we will continue to see. The offering up of an explanation just wow, do you really think it is appropriate to compare these situations with your anecdotal story about the vets. Wow just wow!

another poster said they found my views disturbing so i tried as best i can to explain it , what constitues a troll anyway , oh it means someone cannot say something that pisses somebody else off really , so that makes me one does it ? i think not , iv commented on many different matters , my rabbits are not brought into every thread i comment on . please tell me a deeply distressing time in your life so that i can then say how anecdotal it is ? and you im afraid are the exact example of why i prefer animals over humans .

I think though @chaosrabbitland sometimes if you hold and express views that are so far out of kilter with the vast majority of people, you surely know you will receive messages of shock? You said you would throw a human under the bus to save one of your rabbits. I adore animals but cannot fathom your stance on that particular hypothetical situation, to the point I don't believe if either a child was going to get run over or your rabbit was and you had the chance to save one, you'd choose your rabbit. Maybe that's just because I feel very differently but when you say something so shocking, people are going to be shocked in response.

@youvegottenminuteslynn

I think though *@chaosrabbitland* sometimes if you hold and express views that are so far out of kilter with the vast majority of people, you surely know you will receive messages of shock? You said you would throw a human under the bus to save one of your rabbits. I adore animals but cannot fathom your stance on that particular hypothetical situation, to the point I don't believe if either a child was going to get run over or your rabbit was and you had the chance to save one, you'd choose your rabbit. Maybe that's just because I feel very differently but when you say something so shocking, people are going to be shocked in response.

thank you for responding kindly to me , i have digested what you have written and yes i guess my views are out of the norm , its who i am , i have a common empathy to other people , i dont like to see pain or torture of them , but i dont find it unbearable in the same way others do , it kind of goes over me , its so hard to explain , only with animals do i feel this empathy , it cuts me to the quick to see suffering of them , it almost hurts me to see them hurting , i know its shocking but honestly i couldnt leave an animal to die if it meant a human instead , only my dd i would save , maybe my past which had been very troubled from childhood has left me like this , i dont know , its just how i am , on the surface you would meet me and never know i have these feelings , but when people talk about animals being dispensible it enrages me , maybe i should stay silent and not speak my mind , but my anger takes over me ,

I think you have misunderstood the meaning of anecdote and my argument. This thread is about Afghanistan not you, why would anyone think it is appropriate to describe the value they put on human life when people are disturbed and saddened by the events unfolding in Afghanistan to our fellow human beings.

@chaosrabbitland

That's ok, I thought it sounded like your thinking on this is so outside the 'norm' (for want of a better word) that there was more to it than trolling or anything.

If you really would save a pet rabbit before a human child, for example your DD's friend / schoolmate then I mean this in the kindest way possible, there is no benefit in you sharing that belief with people as it's truly abhorrent to almost everyone and also quite upsetting to hear.

Particularly when children are dying in such inhumane, unthinkably terrifying ways in Afghanistan as we speak.

Saying you would prioritise your own rabbits life over one of those poor children is deeply shocking and, as you have reflected on yourself, shows a lack of empathy that is both shocking and disturbing to most people.

I hope that makes sense and doesn't sound like I'm asking for an argument. It sounds like you perhaps aren't neuro typical (not armchair diagnosing, just supposition based on your last comment) so you don't understand how disturbing a thing that is to think / feel.

All evacuation will stop in 10 days. End of. Cue panic etc. Why the hell did he say that?

31 August was date announced in July by Biden to withdraw. Trump originally agreed 1 May with Taliban. If extended further Taliban would probably start to attack US and allied forces, they agreed to stand back until then.

Regarding should US and NATO allies ever invaded Afghanistan in 2021, A security expert, Professor Paul Rogers, said Bush should never have gone to war in Afghanistan and argued that in 2001 with others. Rogers said "an alternative approach that the response to 9/11 should not have been a war on terror since that was just what the extreme movements wanted. Instead, the attacks should have been seen as appalling acts of transnational criminal activity. The response should have been to bring those behind the attacks to justice. It might have taken a decade or more but would have had far more world-wide public support and cooperation than wars that followed. Even more important would have been to undercut the development of the extreme movements by learning why they got so much support in the first place and how to undermine and countering that support."

[quote youvegottenminuteslynn]@chaosrabbitland

That's ok, I thought it sounded like your thinking on this is so outside the 'norm' (for want of a better word) that there was more to it than trolling or anything.

If you really would save a pet rabbit before a human child, for example your DD's friend / schoolmate then I mean this in the kindest way possible, there is no benefit in you sharing that belief with people as it's truly abhorrent to almost everyone and also quite upsetting to hear.

Particularly when children are dying in such inhumane, unthinkably terrifying ways in Afghanistan as we speak.

Saying you would prioritise your own rabbits life over one of those poor children is deeply shocking and, as you have reflected on yourself, shows a lack of empathy that is both shocking and disturbing to most people.

I hope that makes sense and doesn't sound like I'm asking for an argument. It sounds like you perhaps aren't neuro typical (not armchair diagnosing, just supposition based on your last comment) so you don't understand how disturbing a thing that is to think / feel. [/quote]
sadly i think your right , i have been in psychiatric care many times as a teen , then again in my twenties , i dont know what was ever put into my notes , what makes me feel like this about animals , what my trigger is for them , but not people , i dont know , when my psychaiatrist wanted me to commit to a year in the hospital as voluntary , i declined it , my good friend said it was a bad idea , so i stopped seeing the psychatrist , it was nhs , and i just got on with my life , sometimes i wonder if i had done this thing , would i be different somehow ? , what would i have learned about myself ? . i just will never ever know , i just carry on with my life as best i can . i am how i am , its normal to me , but your right , its evidently not normal to other which i dont understand because i dont have that empaty to other people the way most do , i like to help ,be kind , considerate , have good manners , but not on any deeper level than that

chaosrabbitland
I think we can see from your comments and explanations that you have your reasons and feelings regarding animals etc.
But realistically I do think it is best to not bring them up on this thread about Afghanistan any more now. Best leave it.

@friendlycat

chaosrabbitland I think we can see from your comments and explanations that you have your reasons and feelings regarding animals etc. But realistically I do think it is best to not bring them up on this thread about Afghanistan any more now. Best leave it.

im going to cat , i can talk about afghanistan in a rational way , its horrible seeing 20 years of more or less stablity and some groundbreaking for women descend into sheer hell , but pen has been brought up on this thread and its my trigger , so i will bow out now

@chaosrabbitland I'd save my dog before a human I didn't know too. Don't feel bad for the way your mind works.

I'd never hurt a human but I love my dog(s), so I'd always choose them over people I have no feelings for.

@Peridot1

It’s all utterly horrific. I cannot get my head around it. The sheer horror.

I get why the US wanted out. It’s been 20 years with a huge loss of life and a huge monetary investment. From some reading I get it was never going to pan out as the US and other western countries hoped and thought. At least not yet. Maybe in another 20 years of education and no war and no corruption. But look at Africa - maybe not. Our western approach hasn’t necessarily worked there either.

What I cannot get my head around is HOW Biden has handled this. The hardware they have left behind. Billions of dollars worth. Not winding down more gradually. Gradually getting people out. The middle of the night abandoning of Bagram air base. If they hadn’t abandoned the air base they could have used it to get both people and equipment out surely. It would have diluted what was going on at Kabul airport. I have read he was set on getting the US out before the 20th anniversary of 9/11. But why on Earth do it like this?

The dangers we are all in now due to the equipment and intel he has left behind must be huge. The horror Afghans are facing is unfathomable. The vacuum whereby ISIS and other terror groups can now act as they wish is horrifying.

I literally cannot get my head around it all. How did Biden not see what was going to happen? Why did he not listen to his military advisers who apparently tried to warn him? I thought Trump was terrifying in some ways but this is equally as terrifying. Worse in fact as I really didn’t expect it of Biden.

These are my thoughts exactly Peridot1.

I cannot get my head around the sheer horror of the entire situation and cannot understand the abandoning of Bagram Airbase in July. Leaving one way out and causing utter mayhem with tens of thousands of desperate people converging in one place. It's absolutely horrific.

Again, so crass and self absorbed Chesneyhawkes1.

@FedNlanders

Most of the west won't care until it happens here.

It probably will at some point

I was in Afghanistan in the 1970s so I do have an interest in that part of the world. My feeling is that the west should never have got involved in a country which is deeply traditional and tribal attempting to impose our forms of government. We are wise to get our people out asap. this. We should never have gone in there, or Iraq. The West is far too obsessed with deciding how other countries should be, just like us, and invariably when we go in it fails.

Iraq has never been as unstable than when we went in there. Whatever we thought of Saddam Hussein, the country was far more stable under him than the west.

The Afghans want the Taliban in force. Of course there are going to be those who want to get out, but the media will show us what they want us to see, the fact the Taliban moved back into power within days is very clear proof that they were never really out of power in the first place. We should never have gone in there.

As for Pen Farthing, he had clearance for him and his staff to leave the country on Friday, but they held off because of the animals. If any of those people are killed he is personally responsible, because they all stayed because of a load of bloody dogs and cats. He’s a disgrace, but he makes a nice media presence because he talks about cute animals, and everyone loves a cute animal. And now people are going to die because of him.

Yes I agree, the Russians also meddled in 1979

@AlternativePerspective As for Pen Farthing, he had clearance for him and his staff to leave the country on Friday, but they held off because of the animals.

That's not correct. He had to wait for documentary evidence of clearance for his staff. He couldn't just try anf get them through Taliben checkpoints by saying, "it's okay. Johnson told me over the telephone that they're allowed out...."

If any of those people are killed he is personally responsible, because they all stayed because of a load of bloody dogs and cats.
No, he is not. He's done his best to get his people out, but people have continued to ignore that in favour of Wallace's narrative and spin. He's a Tory. Alternative Facts and spin is what they do best, and it's stunning to see so many people lapping that up.

He’s a disgrace, but he makes a nice media presence because he talks about cute animals, and everyone loves a cute animal. And now people are going to die because of him.

Farthign isn't a disgrace at all. Wallace is. One does not make a promise and then back out. Wallace told him to get himself and his staff to the airport, and Wallace would facilitate their safe passage. When they arrived, Wallace refused to let them in. The American rescue was allowed in (with their dogs), but Farthing's team wasn't.

Alternative facts don't cut it when there's video and written evidence of this in the public eye.

Wallace on 25th August:

"Now that Pen Farthing’s staff have been cleared to come forward under LOTR I have authorised MOD to facilitate their processing alongside all other eligible personnel at HKIA. At that stage, if he arrives with his animals we will seek a slot for his plane.
@DefenceHQ "

Farthing and his team drove out there, and Wallace refused to allow them in. The American rescue was allowed in, but not this one.

Wallace refused to let them in.

Again with this BS - where is your source for this? you have been asked multiple times on various threads and I still haven't seen you answer.
You really think BW sitting in Westminster is able to keep PF out of the US controlled airport in Kabul.

I feel similarly @chaosrabbitland. I would save my dog certainly, any animal really over a human. I just don’t like people much. There are too many of us and a lot are selfish and toxic.

Oh, and I would gladly push Ben Wallace under a train.

@Sparrowfeeder

Oh, and I would gladly push Ben Wallace under a train.

Well you sound like a lovely person, can't think why you don't like people (or perhaps they don't like you).

There are some very disturbed people on this thread.

A fucking rabbit over a child. Ugh.

Wallace refused to allow them in

Pen himself tweeted that they had to leave the airport because Biden changed the rules

@BritishSummertime

Wallace refused to allow them in

Pen himself tweeted that they had to leave the airport because Biden changed the rules

twitter.com/penfarthing/status/1431109185207521280?s=21

Tweet here