Afghanistan

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More US troops killed today than over the last 4 years . Pulling put has cost more deaths of US troops than staying there.
Afghans now being slaughtered.
Massive fail from Biden following Trumps pull out.

Very, very 😔

@SlamLikeAGuitar I hope you have support.

How are people who think that humans ought to be put before cats and dogs losers?

I love my cats but given the choice between saving them or a small, terrified child being jostled and pushed on frightened parents shoulders, isn’t the answer obvious?

Of course in this situation people must be prioritised.

@frumpety

Has the world been a much safer place since the invasion of Afghanistan 20 years ago ?

Yes for Americans especially, the lethality of foreign terror attacks went down. Don’t forget that war was declared on the US from Afghanistan Al Qaeda years before the 9/11 attacks. So the invasion was about retaliation for both declaring war against the US, acts of war killing thousands of Us citizens (including children there were child care centres in the towers) and preventing future attacks.

@copernicium

I've been following this story with so much horror and sadness, checking probably too often than is healthy for updates. But it doesn't feel like there is anything we can do?

I'm absolutely horrified by the disgusting racism shown by people in this country, comments about them having houses for free, and turning up without masks or isolation (there is a link!) and all such nonsense.

The comments on my local newspaper facebook page are genuinely abhorrent. It sickens me. The same people who were being vile about homeless people housed are now faux concerned about 'are' homeless. They have a particular obsession with 'homless vets'. It makes me so angry. The worst comment was a repsonse to someone saying but they will be murdered if they stay there. Repsonse: 'Not my problem'

@BritishSummertime @GreatBigBeautifulTommorow

My DH and our friends both serving and ex-serving are rallying around eachother. We have a WhatsApp group where we’ve all been talking a lot - which is helping. Being able to air everything we need to among people who just “get it” is worth its weight in gold right now.
10 years ago, that never would have happened. It was very much a “keep calm and carry” attitude and that’s just not healthy. I’m so glad that society in general seem to have a more forgiving and empathetic attitude to mental health these days.
I also have a fantastic private therapist and she’s made it clear that she will make herself available to me at the drop of a hat should I feel I need her.

@MrsSkylerWhite

How are people who think that humans ought to be put before cats and dogs losers?

I love my cats but given the choice between saving them or a small, terrified child being jostled and pushed on frightened parents shoulders, isn’t the answer obvious?

Of course in this situation people must be prioritised.

the animals werent affecting anybody else leaving , they were going in a hold of a private plane , the other thread on pen farthing descended into my mind insults about animals priortising over people when they wouldnt have been , unless a whole bunch of babies were going to ride in a hold then no pen farthing couldnt have taken them , he was taking his at risk staff . i get fed up of animals lives being denigrated to nowt against humans , when i feel a lot of the time theres not a lot positive about us as a species compared to animals , i will happily chuck a random person under a bus if it meant saving one of my rabbits ,thats a fact , but all these arguments belong on a different thread and not this one , . otherwise its derailing what the op started

@MrsSkylerWhite there were 26 terrified children including a newborn baby in that bus with taliban guns pointing at them.

Don’t fall for the governments favourite 3 word propaganda statements.

The problem was though from what I have read that the plan was for the private plane to “push in” and as such that would prevent others leaving so in that sense yes the animals would have been preventing humans leaving. There is no right or wrong tjough he was understandably putting his team first including animals but that is just one part of a complex situation of airspace and safe entry to the airport

@frumpety

Has the world been a much safer place since the invasion of Afghanistan 20 years ago ?

The world is getting less safe, but that’s down to increased cyber terrorism which will harness the powers of social media to pit nations against each other and people against people. The breaking down of the fabric of society this way will harm us all in ways we cannot yet imagine and we won’t notice it happen until it’s irreversible.

@DGRossetti

If any country needed invading after 9/11 it was Saudi Arabia.

I agree, but as the UK sells loads of weapons, military planes etc, to SA, that's never going to happen.

Companies like BAE make a lot of money out of them.

@SteveArnottsWaistcoat

I can’t get my head around why this happened like this. It seems so sudden and incredibly clumsy. What is Biden hoping to achieve with this? It’s such a huge regressive step backwards and a kick in the face for anyone who has served or lost their life there.

I really, really don’t get it and it must be so awful for the people who live there.

I found this article interesting, and it helped me to understand why:

www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/08/16/afghanistan-history-taliban-collapse-504977

I hope others find it useful.

PersephoneJames

@MrsSkylerWhite there were 26 terrified children including a newborn baby in that bus with taliban guns pointing at them. “

Yes. I was asking the wider question, why are people who prioritise human life losers? I find it troubling that someone would push a stranger under a bus to save their rabbit. If they mean that, that’s really disturbing.
Anyway, probably not for this thread.

I don’t think there are many people who think animals are more important.
The animals were a red herring, and way to get some publicity to the plight of his work force. This is clearly his main objective, the get his workers and their families out safely.
Much easier to ‘get them out if they are ‘needed’ to help with the animal on the plane.
He knows what will happen to them if he can’t get them out and what will happen when the spotlight moves.

I don’t think he every said animals where more important. It was a good plan, but it didn’t work.

[quote SlamLikeAGuitar]**@BritishSummertime* @GreatBigBeautifulTommorow*

My DH and our friends both serving and ex-serving are rallying around eachother. We have a WhatsApp group where we’ve all been talking a lot - which is helping. Being able to air everything we need to among people who just “get it” is worth its weight in gold right now.
10 years ago, that never would have happened. It was very much a “keep calm and carry” attitude and that’s just not healthy. I’m so glad that society in general seem to have a more forgiving and empathetic attitude to mental health these days.
I also have a fantastic private therapist and she’s made it clear that she will make herself available to me at the drop of a hat should I feel I need her.[/quote]
I’m glad things have changed and you have support. I also wanted to say Thankyou for your service
My DF served and back then there was no support, he had terrible PTSD.
Keep talking

I fact checked the OP original claim that more US troops died yesterday than over the previous four years and it is a lie. 69 US troops died under Trumps watch. The year-on-year fatality statistics are even on Wiki here: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_casualties_in_the_War_in_Afghanistan

@Refreshpage

Biden pointless words "we will not forgive or forget " like the terrorists care!

What a dumb twat Biden is. I mean seriously what did he expect would happen. Death of 12 US troops that wouldn't have died if he didn't just pull out.

It will get worse in the coming days.

I think you are jumping to conclusions. No US deaths in the last few years as the operation was winding down and then Trump promised they were leaving. If they had continued as before there would have been deaths.

All western countries, including us, should have been getting people out earlier.

@MrsSkylerWhite

PersephoneJames

@MrsSkylerWhite there were 26 terrified children including a newborn baby in that bus with taliban guns pointing at them. “

Yes. I was asking the wider question, why are people who prioritise human life losers? I find it troubling that someone would push a stranger under a bus to save their rabbit. If they mean that, that’s really disturbing.
Anyway, probably not for this thread.

its not for this thread your right , but yes its how i feel , im sorry if it makes you disturbed , im considerate to other people , i care about the people i work with and like to get on well with them , i seem to be pretty well liked with everyone that knows me , i do feel compassion towards other people if they are suffering as the people of aghnanistan obvs are , but if anything came down to the bone and if it was a split second choice one of the bunnies or a random person , then my rabbits life takes priority , i cant explain the burning love i have for my animals , all animals really , i dont expect you to understand it either ,sometimes i dont myself , when our first rabbit passed on suddenly after a short illness , so unexpected , i collapsed in the vets when they told me , i felt like i was dying as well , i couldnt stop wailing , i cried and was in a worse state than when my dad died of cancer and my best friend died also of cancer at only 28 yrs old .

i needed a week of work i couldnt function , even now i cant talk about him without the tears threataning , obvs if it was a choice between my dd and one of the buns without hesitation id save her , but it would haunt me forever .
anyway its not for this thread and sorry op for derailing it , i just needed to explain how i am , i dont expect anybody to understand how i feel , i can only say it .

It is all so so sad for such a troubled and difficult Country.

I don't think anybody knows what the answer is. But clearly years upon years of Western influence (and others) have not created a stable base for the future. In such a deeply tribal country with very different traditions to ours, and insufficient understanding of customs and thousands of years of heritage, western forces have been unable to set the framework for a democratic future.

Who knows what the long term outcome will be. I feel terribly sad for its people, but I think their has been too much interference in the country to date. Having said that it's also difficult to say we should have left well alone.

It's so sad, I've been following it all so closely. I can't really say anything as I have nothing useful to contribute but have been getting involved with charities near my home to help the new arrivals

This is on Biden - could have all have so easily avoided.

I am not at all convinced by the Taliban's claims they don't want a brain drain and that's why they don't want Afghans to leave.

They don't want a modern country, with an intelligent workforce, they want something akin to Pol Pot's vision for Cambodia with an extremist Islamic twist. It's all about power.

It’s all utterly horrific. I cannot get my head around it. The sheer horror.

I get why the US wanted out. It’s been 20 years with a huge loss of life and a huge monetary investment. From some reading I get it was never going to pan out as the US and other western countries hoped and thought. At least not yet. Maybe in another 20 years of education and no war and no corruption. But look at Africa - maybe not. Our western approach hasn’t necessarily worked there either.

What I cannot get my head around is HOW Biden has handled this. The hardware they have left behind. Billions of dollars worth. Not winding down more gradually. Gradually getting people out. The middle of the night abandoning of Bagram air base. If they hadn’t abandoned the air base they could have used it to get both people and equipment out surely. It would have diluted what was going on at Kabul airport. I have read he was set on getting the US out before the 20th anniversary of 9/11. But why on Earth do it like this?

The dangers we are all in now due to the equipment and intel he has left behind must be huge. The horror Afghans are facing is unfathomable. The vacuum whereby ISIS and other terror groups can now act as they wish is horrifying.

I literally cannot get my head around it all. How did Biden not see what was going to happen? Why did he not listen to his military advisers who apparently tried to warn him? I thought Trump was terrifying in some ways but this is equally as terrifying. Worse in fact as I really didn’t expect it of Biden.

@igelkott2021

I am not at all convinced by the Taliban's claims they don't want a brain drain and that's why they don't want Afghans to leave.

They don't want a modern country, with an intelligent workforce, they want something akin to Pol Pot's vision for Cambodia with an extremist Islamic twist. It's all about power.

yes i think this is it , they just dont want the embarressment of huge swathes of the people upping off to live in other countries because they are so unbearable . most if not all the women in the workforce will be stuck indoors now , so it only leaves the men using their brains so to speak . it is ultimatly about the power , they need those people to stay ,but its not for what they claim it is

Jannie62 thank you for posting that article. I found it really useful in helping me understand the situation and how the Afghan people think and behave.

The comparison of human lives to rabbits is really crass on a thread about the loss of human life that has already occurred in such a violent way and the loss of human lives we will continue to see. The offering up of an explanation just wow, do you really think it is appropriate to compare these situations with your anecdotal story about the vets. Wow just wow!