to continue to support Extinction Rebellion

[54321nought]

carrying on from the first thread

here

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/a4327567-to-support-extinction-rebellion-more-London-action-tomorrow?msgid=110225062#110225062

@DdraigGoch I posted 3 examples of change plus an article, does that not answer your question?

@DdraigGoch

Protest is protest, that's enough IMO. The world is burning but don't worry, someone is waving a placard while they do yoga. What bloody use is that?

Do people think they are wrong and the climate is not very important?
@lannistunut are you being deliberately obtuse? No one on this thread (or the previous one) has said that climate change is not a serious matter. On the contrary, they are very worried that these people are more likely to turn the public off than get them to change their ways.

I think you post is unnecessarily aggressive, I shan't sink to your level - but maybe do read and (try to) understand the Independent article someone else posted just a few messages back.

XR is not believed to be making anyone think the climate issue is less pressing, even if they are pissing some people off.

XR are not responsible for the fact that the electorate at large cba to hold politicians to account on this issue.

[quote Tulipomania]@DdraigGoch I posted 3 examples of change plus an article, does that not answer your question?[/quote]
Quite! What do people expect XR to do?

It is just an easy opt out to blame XR for the fact that the politicians the electorate keep choosing are not in favour of meaningful change.

You are unreasonable they are horrible ppl. They need to get jobs and stop being utter twats.

I’ve noticed there has been quite a lot of coverage of XR in the media this time, even while the competition for media attention couldn’t be much tougher at the moment with Afghanistan and Covid etc.

That keeps climate change in the public eye.

Meanwhile the coverage of Hurricane Ida doesn’t seem to be making much mention of climate change and I’ve seen barely anything about the wildfires in California at all.

They need to get jobs Quite a few already have jobs, and many are also retired. If above pension age, do they still need to get jobs or are they allowed to continue in retirement?

I think most of Doctors for XR (@DoctorsXr) and ScientistsForXR (@ScientistsX) and other XR groups are composed of people who work and experts.

Calling people twats doesn’t contribute to the debate.

DdraigGoch They have brought about a change in public attitudes to climate change in just 3 years
What change in public attitudes? All I can see is everyone driving around in their SUVs (not me, I ride a bicycle everywhere local, train anywhere further) and desperate to get back flying to Ibiza (again not me, I take the train to Europe). The general public remain resolutely in the camp of "someone should probably do something about climate change. Just as long as I don't have to change anything about my lifestyle or do anything at all, it's someone else's job to solve it".

Forget thinking that electric cars will solve the world's problems, they are very resource intensive and still emit particulate pollution as their tyres wear down. Any form of car is also a very inefficient use of road space as this photo shows: www.danielbowen.com/2012/09/19/road-space-photo/ so the green future is bicycles and public transport for all but the most remote parts of the country (and no, Stroud is not remote Gail so on your bike)

I see little sign of the government announcing a rolling electrification programme for the railways, not even any hint of them reinstating the bits Chris Grayling scrapped (costing the Treasury more money than it saved). Do we hear a peep from XR about this scandal?

We never even hear XR campaign for improved public transport. Even worse, they actively oppose the big infrastructure project the government has which is intended to give people an excellent, clean alternative to flying and driving. A project which also uses a number of innovative technologies to reduce the CO2 produced by concrete.

Nor is the government moving quickly on nuclear power which (according to a former XR activist no less) is the only way of generating enough carbon-free electricity to sustain the UK's demands. Not that you'll see XR demanding the government gets on and builds Wylfa B... www.bbc.com/news/uk-54103163

Perhaps XR should campaign for practical measures like these rather than wibbling about "People's Assemblies".

DdraigGoch all you are saying is recognised by XR.

• we can't rely on individuals to change their own behaviour. It has to be governments backed by scientific evidence. Public opinion is changing - not fast enough, and not everyone, and not just because of XR, but XR helps keep it in the public eye.

• its complex. XR have lots of sub-groups campaigning on specific issues and there are lots of other environmental groups campaigning. But XR events/campaigns try to be focused on big, overarching aims (e.g. Tell The Truth) rather than getting embroiled in the myriad of topics which people are already aware of.

I don't really get your objection to citizens assemblies. It sounds like a more useful way to approach issues than many of the existing mechanisms.

[quote Tulipomania]@DdraigGoch I posted 3 examples of change plus an article, does that not answer your question?[/quote]
Onshore wind is fiddling while Rome burns, the best spots are already in use, you'll never get much out of what's left. Wind currently provides 5GW of power, the UK's total consumption peaks daily at 30GW. A few extra onshore turbines will barely touch this. What do you do about the 10GW currently generated using fossil fuels? Nuclear is the only answer, you'd only need four nuclear power stations to completely decarbonise electricity generation. Perhaps XR could campaign for that.

Bringing forward the ban in production of ICE cars? What use is that without investment in rail?

I don't really get your objection to citizens assemblies. It sounds like a more useful way to approach issues than many of the existing mechanisms.
Don't you? Who will be in these "Citizens' Assemblies" and what are their terms of reference? How do they fit into the unwritten constitution? Who do they answer to?

Whenever a movement or ideology uses the words "people" or "citizens" in this way, I'm always highly suspicious. Think "People's Republic of China", "Democratic People's Republic of Korea", or "German Democratic Republic". It strikes me that the more someone shouts about how they represent "the people" or that they are "democratic", the more the opposite is true.

I'm willing to bet that the "Citizen's Assembly" proposal is little more than a House of Lords without ermine.

That response doesn’t seem very reasoned. Citizens assemblies have been used in several countries to good effect E.g., Ireland to decide on issues around abortion and same sex marriage. It is a foil to populism which seems to me to be a direct threat to the environment (e.g., leading to political outcomes such as the election of Trump and Brexit).

That took half a decade to set up and get to the stage of recommending anything. Much simpler to start with the next budget in the autumn.

Talking of taxes, did you see that the EU will be implementing a tax on aviation fuel? Most commendable. Except it doesn't apply to "business aviation" or "personal and recreational" flights. So no tax for Harry and Meghan the next time they borrow Elton John's private jet. Nor any tax for hedge fund managers on corporate jollies to ski resorts and the Caribbean. It always astounds me that the other year the powerful and wealthy travelled to Davos to discuss the issue of climate change. In private jets.

How much was spent on lobbying Brussels to exempt private jets from tax?

I think this is partly why XR just pressure for there to be general truth told about the seriousness of the situation - ordinary policy squabbling of the type above just seems so inappropriate. I personally am not minded to glue myself to anything anytime soon but I understand the frustration.

It has been interesting watching how fast people swung into action re. Covid, and of course how promptly people respond to natural diasters, but the resonse to climate change can't just be the usual turgid policy debate.

We need to throw a lot of effort and a lot of money at it. Some will be wasted - but what is the alternative? A lot more money wasted if we don't tackle it.

OP not sure why you bothered to start Thread No 2 other than to feed the bun fight, you've barely contributed to your own 2nd thread.
Are you just passing time till your non marathon ?

@minionsrule

OP not sure why you bothered to start Thread No 2 other than to feed the bun fight, you've barely contributed to your own 2nd thread. Are you just passing time till your non marathon ?

Why does this matter to you and why the personal attacks? It’s horrible for other people to read.

It’s an important topic and anyone can start a thread. You can hide it if you don’t like it.

Was in the Science Museum yesterday. Surprised on the way out in mid afternoon to see the crowd and the logos of XR. I felt outright rage at the first sight. Seriously? With all the young children about inside and around the area. Most of them are too young to understand what these people are aiming at. (I had to really calm down to explain to my 8 yo what was going on.) We didn't want them see trouble. Luckily we left in time before what was in the news later on broke out, i.e. glued / headlocked themselves to the chain at the entrance in the museum. Just very inconsiderate. Most of the visitors are families. Young children would be horrified at the scene.

Climate change is real and very saddening and is urgent too. But XR behave like a group of people just wanting attention and shouting without providing solutions to practical problems. Ban fossil exploitation. Sure, I wish too. But it's a very complex issue with little other comparable options available. (I'm hoping for fusion power breakthrough one day in mid-term future!)

I would take them a bit more serious if have clearer "achievable" step-by-step agenda to press the government on policies in short-term, mid-term and long-term. Certainly not by shouting"the planet needs our protection" and then fill up their car with diesel and go on holiday in aeroplane.

@DdraigGoch

That took half a decade to set up and get to the stage of recommending anything. Much simpler to start with the next budget in the autumn.

Talking of taxes, did you see that the EU will be implementing a tax on aviation fuel? Most commendable. Except it doesn't apply to "business aviation" or "personal and recreational" flights. So no tax for Harry and Meghan the next time they borrow Elton John's private jet. Nor any tax for hedge fund managers on corporate jollies to ski resorts and the Caribbean. It always astounds me that the other year the powerful and wealthy travelled to Davos to discuss the issue of climate change. In private jets.

How much was spent on lobbying Brussels to exempt private jets from tax?

Well, the power of the rich = Tory. Just sad and irritating.

Well, the power of the rich = Tory. Just sad and irritating.
because no other party is ever subject to lobbying via vested interests. But no, let's blame a party which isn't even in Brussels any more.

Well said! All the practical issues can be ignored just so easily by XR. That's why I can hardly take them seriously, even without the violence and extreme protest tactics.

It's always easier to shout than to provide viable solutions.

Shame, they had most of the public on their side to begin with.

@DdraigGoch

Well, the power of the rich = Tory. Just sad and irritating. because no other party is ever subject to lobbying via vested interests. But no, let's blame a party which isn't even in Brussels any more.

I realised I didn't read it carefully! Sorry!

Perhaps if we had proportional representation and not FPTP we would have more Greens in government.

They have brought about a change in public attitudes to climate change in just 3 years
I saw a couple of threads this morning which made me want to bring this back up.

The first thread was about helicopter parents who give their kids lifts for journeys they could have walked in 15 minutes (in one batshit case a poster was going to walk her child to a sleepover a few streets away, and the hosting parent insisted on driving them). Do you remember the scene in Toy Story 2 where Al moans about driving "all the way to work" which turns out to be just the other side of the road? My parents used to joke about lazy Americans but evidently there are plenty of car addicts on this side of the pond too.

The second concerned Reading festival and the waste left behind, much of it going to landfill. So much for the "most environmentally conscious generation", it's all talk and no action.

Again shows that most of the public are only concerned about the environment, just as far as it's someone else's responsibility to fix. As soon as they are challenged to take action themselves, suddenly it's "oh I couldn't possibly do without my car..." or "how dare the government put up taxes on petrol!"

XR have changed nothing in this respect, though we have seen a few people described by posters upthread who seem to think that going to the odd protest means that they don't have to feel guilty about their three long-haul holidays every year.

XR have changed nothing in this respect, though we have seen a few people described by posters upthread who seem to think that going to the odd protest means that they don't have to feel guilty about their three long-haul holidays every year.

You are just pulling out imaginary and extreme examples of hypocrisy and pretending that is evidence that everyone in XR is a hypocrite.

It’s meaningless.

And once again for those struggling at the back, the point is that we won’t get the societal changes we need by waiting for individuals to make those choices voluntarily. For every concerned citizen there will be someone else only too happy to jump on the cheap flight or unable to afford the ethical brands in the supermarket. But together we can press governments to make changes.