Leave DSD out of honeymoon holiday

[Honeymare]

My DP and I are getting married next year. Like most people we have been through some tough times with covid and throw in aggressive cancer treatment for me, and losing a parent each.

I am really looking forward now, to the wedding, the marriage, the honeymoon. I have started a new business and starting to feel nearly myself healthwise.

We have been saving for the wedding / honeymoon. I haven't been in a foreign holiday in years, we booked then cancelled at three due to illness then covid came. We are really splashing out on the honeymoon (relative to our own earnings and lifestyle obviously).

We have a 3 year old DC and a 15 year old DSD. DSD comes to us regularly (eow and one or two nights for dinner every week) but not 50%. We always include her in holiday plans but she often changes her mind last minute if she gets a better offer from her mum's side of the family who are extremely wealthy. Anything we plan to do is always met with scorn and open sneering, clearly reiterates from the mum's side of the family. This ranges from something as small as a cake we offer "I only eat really good quality cakes from specialist bakeries" to bigger things. I know she is only mimicking behaviour she's observed but it gets wearing. She has siblings but they are older, have moved out of home and rarely visit.

I get on fine with her but I do find dealing with her stressful. She is not pleased about her younger sibling and will only say hello or goodbye under duress. Otherwise she ignores her completely. We have tried multiple strategies and it's not changing. Her perogative i suppose.

Now to the dilemma.

I don't want to leave DC at home for our honeymoon, she's too young so we have planned two nights in a luxury hotel at home then taking her to a really plush resort with us for two weeks. The trip is costing us a lot. I know it would be one of the few things we do up to DSD's standards and she would probably like to come but it won't feel anything like a honeymoon to me with her there, ignoring her sibling and demanding everything is done her way. I know I will not enjoy it.

And of course there is always the risk she will decide not to come last minute if her other family come up with something more interesting (it's happened before). And its way too much money to lose.

I'm prepared to be told I'm BU to consider going without her and explaining that it's a honeymoon but her sibling is too young to be left at home.

Thoughts please..

YABU your DC is going, its a family holiday, of course invite her
YANBU it's your honeymoon, you should enjoy it

The not catching her thing I did notice, but counted that as 'not getting involved' (I have actually known people - parents tbf - who really, genuinely preferred their child falling and getting hurt to anyone else 'interfering', so it's not inconceivable she has picked up a similar mindset from somewhere). But it's an incident that speaks volumes to me about a real emotional struggle this 15yo seems to be having around feeling displaced/replaced. I think the older sisters are significant here in a few ways. She may well be feeling entirely lost as in unable to keep up/compete with them/not getting the kind of attention she craves from them (wonder if her 'being a big sister' playbook is from them?) and not coping at all with her father's absorption with the younger daughter and you, OP (and that is no judgement whatsoever on the fact that he has had good reason, during your illness, to be absorbed with you).

Oh come on

A 15 year old girl sitting and watching her toddler sister falling over when she could have stopped her falling and hurting herself and saying she wouldn’t because her sister is “not her child”

Is not simply ignoring or not interacting

And it’s peculiar you think thag

Just don't invite her. It's your honeymoon x

I just think the OP has the right sort of sense here that there is something going on that needs careful sorting and think it would be a shame if she was talked by people here into dismissing her dsd as a nasty, jealous witch.

@Marni83

Oh come on

A 15 year old girl sitting and watching her toddler sister falling over when she could have stopped her falling and hurting herself and saying she wouldn’t because her sister is “not her child”

Is not simply ignoring or not interacting

And it’s peculiar you think thag

Did you actually read my last but one reply?

Tell her it's your honeymoon, you'll be dumping DC in childcare and doing what normal couples do on honeymoon. Hopefully she'd rather holiday in a caravan in Whitby sands that have the embarrassment of having to make herself scarce so as not to hear you and DP at it.

My point isn’t about the honeymoon
I think that’s the wrong focus

My concern is that the girl is allowed to treat her sister like this in her own home. With her parents present

And that the fiancé seems like a limp lettuce when the girl is being nothing short of abhorrent to his wife to be and his daughter

Intentionally watching your sister toddler fall and hurt themselves when you could have prevented it - is very disturbing.

@WeDidntMeanToGoToSea

I wonder if simply not engaging with someone - in a teen (look how many threads there are on here from mothers whose own teens are treating the whole family not much differently from what's described here) - is actually 'rude' and 'disrespectful'? If there was actively nasty treatment, that of course would be a completely different kettle of fish. But I'm not sure there's all that much difference in terms of level of 'respect' - certainly as a young child might perceive it - between a clearly reluctant hello/a stiff hug and 'a grunt, if that'. This might actually be a situation in which the OP and partner can apply the toddler behaviour mantra 'praise the good and ignore the bad' to the dsd as well as the 3yo, who may well then semi-consciously recognise 'oh, X is behaving badly, Mum and Dad are ignoring it like they do my behaviour when it's not good'. Once the 3yo is old enough to articulate 'why does X ignore me', then she's old enough to hear 'we don't know, she won't tell us. We don't like it at all, and she knows that, but we can't make her be nice to you, just like you can't make Emily at school be nice to you even though you'd like her to be your friend'.

I get where your coming from but I was part of a SP family and the 3 year old in the situation. And I can tell you the damage was pretty horrific, I knew from about 6 I wasn't welcome when my siblings were around. It was clear, it was hostile and I was ever so sorry. Trying to figure out what I did.Once you get to the point that you know that your second class and disliked by your family esp siblings or resented for even being present, you make yourself smaller, turns you into people pleaser and make your needs even smaller than that. People think people pleasing is a good thing but assure you it got me into hot water several times to Sunday.

This is my personal experience so take it with as much salt as you need but honestly all family members need to be considered because all are equal and valid.

I don't know what's causing the issue, I do feel for the SD sounds likes she's torn between family loyalties as were my siblings. We get on better now and my sister says she's ashamed of the nasty things they used to say. She helped me heal some wounds that were created just through being and existing. I didn't chose to be, I just was. So the adults need to handle it from all angles not just one.

It’s not normal teen behaviour
It is sinister
It is recording someone in the midst of chemo
It is watching her toddler sister hurt themselves when you could have prevented it

The girl needs help
But I would leave that to her parents
The op’s daughter is her responsibility, and in the absence of a strong father. I would say - this girl is not allowed in my home until she is receiving help for what I perceive to be a very serious underlying issue with regard to her sister and me that goes beyond simply not liking us.

candlelights, I'm sorry you went through that, it sounds awful and perhaps the worse for it being siblings plural treating you like this (you must have felt rather ganged up on)?

I would just wonder what the alternative is? The dsd can't be compelled to express the (in OP's and her dp's eyes) requisite degree of affection and involvement. The current state of affairs is no better than ignoring would be IMO. The only alternative would seem to be effectively banishing her from the house - and wouldn't that cause much, much more damage to all concerned, in the long run?

She needs help, no argument from me on that. But she shouldn't be made into the sole carrier of all that is wrong about this situation, whose exclusion will make everything OK again. A family therapy approach that doesn't assign blame - to anyone - would seem to be a good way forward here.

@Marni83

It’s not normal teen behaviour It is sinister It is recording someone in the midst of chemo It is watching her toddler sister hurt themselves when you could have prevented it

The girl needs help
But I would leave that to her parents
The op’s daughter is her responsibility, and in the absence of a strong father. I would say - this girl is not allowed in my home until she is receiving help for what I perceive to be a very serious underlying issue with regard to her sister and me that goes beyond simply not liking us.

I agree.

I caught her recording me once, I can't be sure but I suspected it was to show her family members what I looked like (not good; completely bald and extreme weight gain from steroids)

Shocking. This is a 15 year old not a little kid.

@WeDidntMeanToGoToSea

The not catching her thing I did notice, but counted that as 'not getting involved' (I have actually known people - parents tbf - who really, genuinely preferred their child falling and getting hurt to anyone else 'interfering', so it's not inconceivable she has picked up a similar mindset from somewhere). But it's an incident that speaks volumes to me about a real emotional struggle this 15yo seems to be having around feeling displaced/replaced. I think the older sisters are significant here in a few ways. She may well be feeling entirely lost as in unable to keep up/compete with them/not getting the kind of attention she craves from them (wonder if her 'being a big sister' playbook is from them?) and not coping at all with her father's absorption with the younger daughter and you, OP (and that is no judgement whatsoever on the fact that he has had good reason, during your illness, to be absorbed with you).

Yes it’s quite clear the DSD is struggling, but surely the right approach is to get the DSD support for these feelings, and for the family to have support via family therapy or similar to manage it. Rather than “dropping it” and hoping that the 3 year old isn’t effected by being treated with disdain in her own home.

Your previous point about bodily autonomy and not forcing and physical affection is fair though

And at some stage OP kids need to understand that there are consequences to behaviour. She's made it completely unviable to spend time together as a family of four so she won't be invited.

The 3 year old will be in the holiday childcare giving you a lot of time to yourselves. Plus it'll nap and go to bed early. The 15 year old would be stuck to you. It completely different.

I applaud your DH for putting you first in this situation, assuming he puts his dd first when her needs are paramount.

As so many others have said, ideally dont take your dd either, I've left mine with family at younger ages than that. She's not a baby.

@WeDidntMeanToGoToSea

People are not purely basing their opinion on DSD on her not wanting much to do with her sister.

For one thing, the behaviour of her older siblings very strongly supports a trajectory towards mind bogglingly entitled behaviour, and OP has said they have a big influence on her. That kind of upbringing is clearly there.

For another, there is DSD filming OP when she was going through chemo. Callous, and cruel, and there were no consequences.

And crucially, her disdain for her sibling is currently creating such an obvious issue that OP and her DP feel the need to keep them totally separate, and OP has to take the toddler out. It's not clear whether this is pushed by DSD or if OP and her DP are jumping the gun, but this is not appropriate or sustainable. She has had three years to explore her irrational feelings of being displaced. At this point, it is just not on to expect a fully fledged family member to absent themselves every time she is there. She needs to be able to coexist without it being an issue.

I appreciate that you are focusing on the part about being forced to interact with a younger child, but there really is an awful lot of evidence of spoilt and bratty behaviour throughout OPs posts when you look beyond that one element.

Yes, of course there's some less than pleasant behaviour from her. I was focusing specifically on the interaction with the 3yo and leaving that aside, tbf. But she's shown some unpleasant behaviour. So has my, actually very nice oldest teen, on occasion. So have a good proportion of MNers' teens. Struggling people can be unpleasant, and unpleasant people can struggle. But we need to remember a 15yo is still a child. I can't help feeling that a lot of the posts on here are wanting to reassure the OP that it's OK to leave the girl out of her holiday* and saying 'look, she's an entitled brat' to justify that. The question of whether this girl goes on the holiday or not is a very 50/50, one-way-or-the-other one, after all. It's just that the wider situation (which, tbh, I am a lot more interested in than the holiday) is a lot more nuanced than that.

*which, at least from one perspective, it is. It's certainly OK to not want to take her. Nobody's saying the OP is the archetypal evil SM that MN loves to hate. I can just see tendencies of the very polarised conversation that often happens around stepmothers and stepchildren happening on here and I don't think it meets the situation.

Anyway, I have work to do so am out at this point - OP, however this all works out, I wish you nothing but the very best of health, a wonderful wedding and a very happy marriage.

Hi op. With regards the way your dd interacts with your toddler, I just wanted to say that my own dc hate seeing their dad with his new baby. I don't know how they respond to the child when they are there, but they have been very, very upset at home.

I am sure posters would say that they need to get over it, grow up and so on, but it is not that easy to control emotions and feelings. They have told me that they struggle to cope with seeing him parent another child - they find it upsetting if he is 'doing a better job' than he did with them, are jealous I suppose.

Does your dp have the sort of relationship with his ex where he could ask her about this? Reiterate how much he loves her and wants her to have a relationship with her half sibling, ask whether she's shared what is bothering her, what you could do to help?

Ultimately, you can't talk or rationalise someone out of an emotional position. Talking to her will sound like criticism and she will be defensive. It will also reinforce her view that she is a problem, at fault, less loved.

@WeDidntMeanToGoToSea

candlelights, I'm sorry you went through that, it sounds awful and perhaps the worse for it being siblings plural treating you like this (you must have felt rather ganged up on)?

I would just wonder what the alternative is? The dsd can't be compelled to express the (in OP's and her dp's eyes) requisite degree of affection and involvement. The current state of affairs is no better than ignoring would be IMO. The only alternative would seem to be effectively banishing her from the house - and wouldn't that cause much, much more damage to all concerned, in the long run?

No I totally got you. Honestly I'm not sure tbh. I think that setting down clear expectations on acceptable household behaviour is a good one. You can't not handle it or avoid it in my book. Kids pick up on things much earlier than we adults think sometimes. Both kids will know the score that's for certain.

It wasn't a fun existence but actually now as a adult I saw how torn my sister was, how much retribution she got when she went home after spending contact time with us from her side. Doesn't justify it but does explain it.

Even she said she was shocked she wasn't pulled up on it. And in her head that meant this behaviour was ok.

She knows now and so do I and actually fiercely protective now when the drama kicks off. I suspect at the time she just didn't feel strong enough to battle the war at home. Some times unkindness needs to be met with kindness and firm boundaries from the adults.

This one has me completely scratching my head because all angles it seems just awful.

It's your dh's honeymoon too

@WeDidntMeanToGoToSea The reason her behaviour specifically makes it OK to leave her out of this holiday in my opinion is that it is a natural consequence if it. Reasonable to struggle with having a younger half sibling, but if after three years (during which time she refused to engage with any attempts to help her, which were by the sounds of things very patient and forgiving) she is still so strongly opposed to it that she cannot be with the whole family, and must be with her dad exclusively, then it is not possible for her to go on a family holiday. Practically speaking, that is simply the consequence of the path she has chosen.

I just read through the whole thread and I have a couple of questions. Has your DSD had any counselling? It sounds like she could do with some. Also how do the other step daughters treat your youngest?

My dd and her half sister are the same age gap as your two. Her dad has been awful at treating them the same - clearly favouring and spoiling his younger dd and running our dd down whenever he can. My dd really struggled with feelings of being pushed out and has counselling to help her with this (and other things). But as painful as all of that is for her she is an absolute treasure towards her half sister and completely realises it isn't the fault of an innocent 3 year old that their dad is a knob.

She is gentle and kind with her, buys her little presents with her own money, facetimes her regularly etc.

There's absolutely no excuse for the way your dsd is treating her little sister no matter what's gone down

The teen needs help, that is worrying and disturbing behaviour and not normal at all. I'd not have her in your home around your 3 year old....