Leave DSD out of honeymoon holiday

[Honeymare]

My DP and I are getting married next year. Like most people we have been through some tough times with covid and throw in aggressive cancer treatment for me, and losing a parent each.

I am really looking forward now, to the wedding, the marriage, the honeymoon. I have started a new business and starting to feel nearly myself healthwise.

We have been saving for the wedding / honeymoon. I haven't been in a foreign holiday in years, we booked then cancelled at three due to illness then covid came. We are really splashing out on the honeymoon (relative to our own earnings and lifestyle obviously).

We have a 3 year old DC and a 15 year old DSD. DSD comes to us regularly (eow and one or two nights for dinner every week) but not 50%. We always include her in holiday plans but she often changes her mind last minute if she gets a better offer from her mum's side of the family who are extremely wealthy. Anything we plan to do is always met with scorn and open sneering, clearly reiterates from the mum's side of the family. This ranges from something as small as a cake we offer "I only eat really good quality cakes from specialist bakeries" to bigger things. I know she is only mimicking behaviour she's observed but it gets wearing. She has siblings but they are older, have moved out of home and rarely visit.

I get on fine with her but I do find dealing with her stressful. She is not pleased about her younger sibling and will only say hello or goodbye under duress. Otherwise she ignores her completely. We have tried multiple strategies and it's not changing. Her perogative i suppose.

Now to the dilemma.

I don't want to leave DC at home for our honeymoon, she's too young so we have planned two nights in a luxury hotel at home then taking her to a really plush resort with us for two weeks. The trip is costing us a lot. I know it would be one of the few things we do up to DSD's standards and she would probably like to come but it won't feel anything like a honeymoon to me with her there, ignoring her sibling and demanding everything is done her way. I know I will not enjoy it.

And of course there is always the risk she will decide not to come last minute if her other family come up with something more interesting (it's happened before). And its way too much money to lose.

I'm prepared to be told I'm BU to consider going without her and explaining that it's a honeymoon but her sibling is too young to be left at home.

Thoughts please..

YABU your DC is going, its a family holiday, of course invite her
YANBU it's your honeymoon, you should enjoy it

Sorry the counsellor….
You consulted privately on the matter of your dsd but your dsd doesn’t have counselling? Sorry not clear

OMG I can’t believe what I am reading here.

I feel so awful for you @Honeymare. You’ve been through such an awful lot and even your honeymoon is now being hijacked.

No. Just don’t. Go on your honeymoon. Your 3yo has to come, so she comes. No apologies, no grovelling, no trying to change the dynamic, no bargaining. Book your holiday and go and enjoy yourself. You absolutely deserve it and in fact surely even the most self obsessed teenager would not expect to be invited?

@marni83 respectfully it is clear from all your posts you had reached a conclusion immediately about my DP being a certain way and are going to fit anything I say around that narrative.

I'm not saying my DP is perfect or that he (or I for that matter) has handled everything perfectly but this is a very tricky situation to navigate.

Your assessment that he is leaving me to decide is entirely wrong or that I will be the bad cop if I make a certain decision.

As can be seen for the variety of replies here it is not black and white. We are discussing it together and I am posting here for other people's opinions.

Well if he regards this as civil behaviour then, well, I’ll duck out. Because what you have described, if was was done to my toddler, in her home, in front of her parents - well, let’s just say I have a different definition to your fiancé re what “civil” behaviour is

To put this into perspective- if SD was your DD and she had acted exactly the same after chemo and with her sibling. Would you truly be taking her ?

Personally I wouldn't be taking her away due to her behaviour alone. Her being a SC is actually is a red herring and is fogging your judgement. All children even SC have to find out theirs consequences for appalling behaviour. This wasn't bad behaviour this was cruelty.

If she was your DD would you have just accepted it ? Would have DP ? Guilt isn't a useful emotion here. You cannot fix what you didn't break OP.

@Marni83

Well if he regards this as civil behaviour then, well, I’ll duck out. Because what you have described, if was was done to my toddler, in her home, in front of her parents - well, let’s just say I have a different definition to your fiancé re what “civil” behaviour is

Your so-called red flags are based on basically everything that has been said even if they are directly contradictory to each other. I would bet good money that if i said my fiance is insisting we take her you'd say that was a red flag and he should be leaving the decision to me.

Your comment about the step parenting forum being filled with wives like me show you aren't coming to this particular scenario with an open mind but a total preconception that all fathers are useless and leave everything to their gullible foolish second wives.

Maybe that's true in lots of cases, maybe it's true in my case but the fact you were demonising my DP from the first page of my thread (actually my first post when I hadn't had a chance to respond to any queries about him) proves to me your opinion is heavily biased. Thanks for taking the time anyway, I won't be engaging with you anymore.

@fourminutestosavetheworld

Could you invite her but offer a cash alternative if she doesn't think it's for her, so that she can attend a festival with friends next year, or have a holiday with her friends after her GCSEs? I'd approach it as really, really wanting her to come with you but if she thinks it looks boring you'll give her the cost of the holiday (or whatever is appropriate). I bet she takes the cash.

I think that's a good idea, I know my DS would have taken that

@candlelightsatdawn

To put this into perspective- if SD was your DD and she had acted exactly the same after chemo and with her sibling. Would you truly be taking her ?

Personally I wouldn't be taking her away due to her behaviour alone. Her being a SC is actually is a red herring and is fogging your judgement. All children even SC have to find out theirs consequences for appalling behaviour. This wasn't bad behaviour this was cruelty.

If she was your DD would you have just accepted it ? Would have DP ? Guilt isn't a useful emotion here. You cannot fix what you didn't break OP.

It's hard to talk about my hypothetical teenage daughter but somebody asked me something similar upthread and I tried my best to consider this scenario.

I think it would be easier with my own daughter to say "listen this is a honeymoon, you're not being left out, it's just we have to bring toddler." But I would expect to have clearer communication with my own daughter, I don't really know what goes on in my SD's head, anytime her dad (or occasionally I) try to talk to her she cries a lot while dismissing everything as fine. I once told her it might be fine with her but wasn't fine with me. She cried more and I felt defeated.

I really don't feel comfortable though with her being left off the holiday as punishment (even as rationalising decision in my own head) but am realistic that I won't enjoy it at all.

I think the time has passed for there being consequences for her behaviour during my chemo. There was another (staycation) holiday booked afterwards which she was invited on and some mini breaks. So if we claimed this holiday was the consequence it would come across totally disingenuous and a convenient excuse.

I know we should have tackled it more directly, that's probably my main takeaway from this thread. I am pussyfooting around.

We are going to talk to her this week about how she treats her sister. DP said he can do it himself or the three of us can talk. I would like to be involved now I'm wondering if that's a good ide. What do people think?

@Honeymare I think your in a incredibly hard place. I have been a SD too and for me it can add a extra layer of confusion because I used to think how would I feel if x happened. But of course me and my SD are so very emotionally different which complicates things somewhat.

I suppose I think realistically whether SD would actually enjoy it given all you have said ? I suspect not. But your best place to truly judge that.

You won't enjoy it and I can't imagine DP or DD will enjoy watching you not enjoy it and I don't think your a bad person for saying this actually I think your rather brave. You are on rock and hard place.

I really do think your cup may have run empty over this last traumatic period of time and I think maybe this would be a good chance to refill. I think someone who's been through what you have been through gets to do that.

Maybe go on honeymoon without SD and plan something she would really like when your back.

I would be honest with her as if she was your own daughter, and explain look this isn't personal I think she's at a age that will get it (and I do think this would different if DSC was younger). You may find she's not fussed at all. But I would ask and find out.

🌸

@Honeymare

I think the time has passed for there being consequences for her behaviour during my chemo. There was another (staycation) holiday booked afterwards which she was invited on and some mini breaks. So if we claimed this holiday was the consequence it would come across totally disingenuous and a convenient excuse.

I know we should have tackled it more directly, that's probably my main takeaway from this thread. I am pussyfooting around.

We are going to talk to her this week about how she treats her sister. DP said he can do it himself or the three of us can talk. I would like to be involved now I'm wondering if that's a good ide. What do people think?

It's a good idea. It's not like DD is going anywhere so it has to be dealt with. The longer it goes on the more set in stone it will become. Whether it's you and DP or just DP is up to who will be able to reach her better.

I've just filtered your posts OP and I'm horrified at how your step daughter seems to be treating everyone. Her being civil to her small sister is not a big ask, she sounds down right rude and nasty. If it were me my foot would have been down ages ago and she would have been told that being civil is a non negotiable.

You absolutely can take your small daughter and use the child care. It's a good call to involve step sister and give her the chance to be part of the family. She is 15, she understands basic manners I would hope. You sound like you've done too much pussy footing about.

I think when you broach this it should be you and your husband, you are a team. She has the chance to be polite to her sister. Jesus, is not like you are asking her to play with her or babysit is it! She just needs to respond politely and talk to her. Bloody disgusting behaviour, however people want to excuse it!

I think it would be easier with my own daughter to say "listen this is a honeymoon, you're not being left out, it's just we have to bring toddler."

So why don’t you suggest that her father says precisely those words to her?

I'm not going to be popular for this, but with behaviour like that I would be insisting contact took place outside my home. Little DD only has you to advocate for her and her home should be a place of safety where she knows she is loved. You're not asking much of your SD, no more than would be expected if it were a little cousin or a friends younger sibling. Her behaviour is disgusting and spiteful and at 15 she is old enough to know that. If she was a few years younger I might say different.

Sorry that doesn't solve the holiday dilemma, although I agree with all the others saying you shouldn't take her, she will ruin it for you. But just saying you're a far better and kinder person than me to have put up with this so far.

Op, how about you invite her but say that as with your DD it’s a honeymoon and you will be booking her into the teenage kids’ clubs and activities and you will have some dinners together and some nights you will get a babysitter so you and DH can have dinner together.

If she comes you have very clear boundaries about how much time will en famille and you are treating both children the same.

It might also put her off coming if she doesn’t want to be doing organised activities but at least it was offered.

@Iamclaracowbell I wouldn't feel comfortable making a big decision like that. My thinking is; she's going to be an adult (sort of) in four or five years so this time isn't infinite. What if I regretted my decision, there would be no option to turn the clock back.

Our little DD is very loved and happy. She is crazy about her big sister but talks about her mainly instead of approaching her and is self conscious interacting with her.

It's hard to know when / how to put the foot down as she doesn't overtly mistreat her. If we ask her to say goodnight, she will stiffly say the word. If we ask her to give a hug she will stiffly stand and allow it to happen. So our gripe would be - please do it and do it enthusiastically - which isn't really reasonable.

Once when dd was a baby DSD wouldn't hold her for a moment so I could tend to a cooker emergency (I was actually making DSD's lunch) and I had to put baby roaring crying onto the floor. I felt justified telling DSD clearly how annoyed I was with her and how unfair it was. Since then she never refused to hold her but would keep her arms straight and hold her away from her body even if the effort of it had her in tears. It is an ongoing protest of some sort but she refuses to tell us what it's about, we have asked her every way we can think of.

This all sounds awful

I hope you manage to resolve it

It sounds like you'd be better off going without her

[quote Honeymare]@Iamclaracowbell I wouldn't feel comfortable making a big decision like that. My thinking is; she's going to be an adult (sort of) in four or five years so this time isn't infinite. What if I regretted my decision, there would be no option to turn the clock back.

Our little DD is very loved and happy. She is crazy about her big sister but talks about her mainly instead of approaching her and is self conscious interacting with her.

It's hard to know when / how to put the foot down as she doesn't overtly mistreat her. If we ask her to say goodnight, she will stiffly say the word. If we ask her to give a hug she will stiffly stand and allow it to happen. So our gripe would be - please do it and do it enthusiastically - which isn't really reasonable.

Once when dd was a baby DSD wouldn't hold her for a moment so I could tend to a cooker emergency (I was actually making DSD's lunch) and I had to put baby roaring crying onto the floor. I felt justified telling DSD clearly how annoyed I was with her and how unfair it was. Since then she never refused to hold her but would keep her arms straight and hold her away from her body even if the effort of it had her in tears. It is an ongoing protest of some sort but she refuses to tell us what it's about, we have asked her every way we can think of.[/quote]
She’s the youngest of her full sisters? Sounds like a teenager who has always been over indulged and treated like a pampered princess who is now feeling usurped by the new baby.

All that talk of splitting things four ways now etc.

It also sounds like she went down a path of extreme indifference at a young age and now can’t get off it. Probably for fear of being seen as disloyal etc by her older siblings who also aren’t interested hence the crying and no real explanation for her behaviour.

Good points there @MimiSunshine about the path of indifference and being seen to be disloyal. Incidentally the talk of 'the money being split four ways' came from her older sister but she is very forceful and influential so it has definitely filtered down. A pp thought that was about inheritance but it's not, she said her father could take what he needed from his wages and then the remainder would need to now be split four ways instead of three. I was flabbergasted (my perspective is the children get catered for and then the remainder is spent at the parents' discretion on whatever they want not vice versa) but at least she was being honest about her feelings.

Do you have any firsthand experience of a situation like this or advice?

I don't have any experience or wisdom unfortunately but I just wanted go say how well you're dealing with all this.
You've obviously been through an awful time and are an amazing parent and step parent.
I think whatever you decide will be best because you're obviously trying to take everyone's feelings into consideration.
Though I do think you deserve a treat, just for you

Oh OP, I’ve read all your updates, it’s a heartbreaking situation and you’re really between a rock and a hard place.

I think your new approach is good - do the 4 day luxury break with no dc followed up with a longer family holiday honeymoon. Tell her that you & DH can not entertain a family holiday with the family dynamic as it is, it will be an expensive unenjoyable mistake. Tell her you know it is unfair to ask DSD to tolerate 3 year old for an extended period and it’s is cruel to expect 3year old to be around a family member who basically hates her. Give her the choice to work on the behaviour, with support, or to opt out of the holiday (she may well choose that anyway).

It may not resolve the honeymoon dilemma but I agree with PP that DSDs behaviour really needs to be sorted - have you tried family constellation therapy or family systems therapy? Has DSD had individual therapy? You mention a counsellor involvement but was it someone with expertise in this area? You need someone with expertise dealing with trauma and childhood attachment (more a psychologist than a counsellor).

There are some similarities between my childhood and your situation, so with personal experience I can say this…. if this is not nipped in the bud now (and it might not be be easy or comfortable to sort it), your DH will likely loose his relationship with DSD anyway as soon as she is old enough to choose whether to maintain contact, and your 3 year old will be negatively effected. It may be too late to save the relationship between DSD and DH, but there’s still time to mitigate the damage to your 3 year old. DSDs behaviour you describe isn’t civility, it’s obvious disdain, which your 3year old will notice.

You sound like a really kind, thoughtful and compassionate person and an amazing step mum who’s been through a shocking time. I think you’re doing such a good job juggling everything here and you definitely deserve some treats and a proper break!

OP I've read your posts but not all the comments (apologies if someone has suggested this) but could you take your DC on the trip you had planned, then leave DC with a relative and take SD on a separate special luxury trip to "celebrate" eg long weekend in a very nice hotel just her, you and DP, with activities you know she will love...? That way you get your honeymoon and show SD she is special and valued too...

It seems to me that the 2 nights in the hotel is the honeymoon, and you have booked the luxury holiday after your wedding and framing it as a 'honeymoon.' The reality is that it isn't a honeymoon as your taking your DC and leaving DH's child behind. If it were your DC that was a teenager, would you honestly leave her behind and take the youngest? Even if older DC was old enough to be left behind? This is honestly no different. I am telling you this because you are storing up a whole world of problems for yourself. You don't want to begin your marriage under a cloud, and if DH is already saying that he would rather both or neither DC come, he may end up
resenting you if it causes problems between him and his DC.

@Vispa

OP I've read your posts but not all the comments (apologies if someone has suggested this) but could you take your DC on the trip you had planned, then leave DC with a relative and take SD on a separate special luxury trip to "celebrate" eg long weekend in a very nice hotel just her, you and DP, with activities you know she will love...? That way you get your honeymoon and show SD she is special and valued too...

Nobody has suggested that and while I think it's a good suggestion I'd worry though that she would see her younger sister go on the bigger more expensive trip and it would end up making things worse.

@shizen thank you so much for taking the time to type all that out. Any chance you could share more about the similarities with your own childhood? Who were you in this scenario, how it was handled and most importantly how did it impact you?