That New Zealand's strategy has failed

[JudesBiggestFan]

And they will have to start the long and painful process of learning to live with Covid? I spoke to my friend in NZ earlier and he was in shock at being back in lockdown. He said they really felt they'd defeated the virus and this has just come out of nowhere. I feel for him but an airborne virus...it can't be stopped. And the cost of trying is too high. Or do they still have a chance of beating the virus?

No one in the UK should pity NZ for 'being sold a lie' - our PM lies non-stop. About covid and everything else.

What are you going to do about all of the people that will refuse the vaccine big because from here, I can tell you already your uptake looks very low. Six months to herd immunity, and then sorry to tell you but you will need to start all over again with boosters?

You're rather patronising for someone who does not understand how things are working in NZ.

The uptake was low because there was literally not enough vaccine in the country. I would have had the vaccine months ago but I couldn't because the limited amount of vaccine here was prioritised for more vulnerable populations. All NZ's vaccine has to come from overseas. If there is limited supply in NZ because all the available vials have already been sold to the UK, Europe or US, please explain to me how NZers are supposed get the vaccine faster?

Boosters will roll out after the population has had the first dose, same as anywhere.

This.

Whilst we did have the luxury of some time re the vaccine rollout, it has only really kicked off properly in the last couple of weeks. Leaving the vast majority of the country unvaccinated during winter was a risky strategy. My understanding is there were multiple factors playing into the delay. Our overly cautious approach has been a part of that, as has not wanting to pay a premium for an earlier delivery. If this lockdown drags on, we will probably spend the equivalent of the premium in wage subsidies and lost tax revenue, so it’s a false economy.

I think we mostly got it right but should have ensured the rollout was well underway by the start of our winter- even if that meant paying a premium.

Altruism had very little to do with it. I voted for Jacinda and have been supportive of her so far, but the soapboxing and spin is starting to wear a bit thin. I really don’t believe altruism was a driving force in the vaccine roll out delays

NZ having 5 cases was on the UK news, first story. The fact that the UK has tens of thousands of cases every day and feels it's doing well with 80-100 deaths a day was not on the news. I'm starting to wonder if the Tories are using NZ as a news management strategy?

Because it is a choice, and one that they feel they don't have to take there is not enough compelling reasons to do so, if they can carry on as they are endlessly. Whether the young are happy to forgo their hopes, dreams, job opportunities and seeing the rest of the world is another matter.

A stirring piece of dystopian fan fic but unfortunately not true in the slightest.

we are going in to lockdown October

It’s unlikely that she’s been so informed, but after the return of schools in September with the only government initiative against Covid being an inadequate supply of CO2 detectors - and the removal of the need to trace and isolate - we can expect cases to be very high by the end of October.

Altruism had very little to do with it. I voted for Jacinda and have been supportive of her so far, but the soapboxing and spin is starting to wear a bit thin. I really don’t believe altruism was a driving force in the vaccine roll out delays

A very sensible post.

That was in response to @AuntyJoyce

YABU to display such schadenfreude.

It’s also misplaced. They still have much better results in terms of keeping people safe and alive.

And undeniably a better record at treating one another like they actually give a damn.

I wonder how many people have actually been to NZ when I read some of these posts. I spent many months there, and most of the land mass is precisely that, fields and sheep, huge lakes and nothing else for miles and miles and miles on end.
Even the largest cities are absolutely tiny and very spaced out. Nothing like Scotland, or anywhere else in the UK!!

Please look at the geography, the population and the culture.
There you will have the answer.

Huge Vineyards and sheep and a very small high regulated organised society living a life already very conducive to social distancing and sealed away from the world. I am sure this does not feel like a sacrifice to them now, but a life of lockdowns would ruin this beautiful gentle country, and that is why I personally feel very strongly about it. I want them to succeed, and come out of this as strongly as possible, I just don't agree that endless strict lockdowns is the answer at all, and it may take longer before that is truly understood by the people of NZ.

The uptake was low because there was literally not enough vaccine in the country.

I second this. Same experience in Australia, people wanted to get vaccinated but couldn't due to our incompetent Prime Minister. Now we are finally getting Pfizer into the country, we are getting vaccinated at daily world record rates.

I think it's way too early to be talking about which country got it right or wrong; we're still in the middle of the pandemic! AU/NZ are taking a very different approach to UK, and for us we've kept a low death toll, serious ill/long covid rates, and a strong economy. The trade of is limited freedoms and going in and out of lockdowns. Delta has shown us that long term we have to accept covid once 80% of 16+ population is vaccinated.

I add a disclaimer here - with delta we are seeing 25% of hospital cases being children. Are we will to trade off the health and lives unvaccinated children when herd immunity does not work for this variant?

The NZ approach is fantastic for people who don't ever want to leave NZ.

However there are so many people in NZ who have very close family overseas and they are not allowed to travel to see them. A poster on another thread was explaining that there are not enough (very expensive) places in quarantine hotels to go around and people cannot take the risk of leaving NZ to go overseas and not be able to return, potentially becoming an illegal overstayer in the process.

I know a family who moved to NZ about 5 years ago, both of the parents are European nationals (not British) and travelled back every year to see their families. They haven't been back to Europe since 2019.

And there is no prospect of this travel ban being lifted unless the NZ government get their finger out and get people jabbed. Whatever the reasons for the very slow roll out and very low uptake it needs to be addressed as people in NZ are going to be locked into their country for a very long time.

Population density may be a red herring but location isn't - NZ is so far from the next nearest large country compared to the UK which is joined onto Ireland, and 20 miles from continental Europe.

For NZ to reach the same number of per-capita deaths as the UK, 190,000 would need to die of C-19. I’m just not prepared to accept that scale of loss.

Sometimes I wonder if this doubling-down on NZ’s strategy actually comes from a place of deep shame that so many people in the UK value their ability to walk around without a mask on more than the lives of other people and they know deep down what that says about them

it's unfortunate timing for them that the Delta variant has gotten in now, before they have had time to put a proper vaccine programme in place

How much time did they need? Vaccines have been available for nine months, they should have got on board back in December. Even the useless UK government has managed to get the majority of the population done.

What a bizarre thread! We’ll only really be able to judge which countries performed best with any degree of accuracy once this is all over.

At some point, we are going to have to stop trying to control the virus and learn to live with it, and it’s only at that stage we will be able to look back and get some idea of how expensive in terms of both lives and money, each government’s tactics have been. Even then different countries will not be easy to compare due to differing population densities.

But the idea that life in the UK is the most normal outside of Sweden is ridiculous. Lots of us outside the UK have been living fairly normal lives ever since an initial early lockdown, and I know there are many in the UK who are not living normally now as it’s obvious the virus is still out of control and the vaccine isn’t 100% effective.

But. As we say in NZ - you do you.

Most NZers are comfortable with lockdown as a means to prevent people dying and if that makes it look like we’re being ‘sold a lie’ I’m okay with that as at least I’m looking out for those more vulnerable than myself and that tbh is a moral code I want to live by

I’m just not prepared to accept that scale of loss

But most of the people most likely to die from covid are in the over 80s age bracket, that are indeed going to most likely die from something, it will just happen to be covid.
Do you think confining a whole nation to a life of lockdowns is worth shielding a small minority of people from what is ultimately going to happen anyway? Do you really expect the middle age and younger people in the country to accept that in the long term? The quality of their lives sacrificed in this way?

I’m not from NZ or the UK, but I am taken aback by the brainwashing by the UK media that some of the statements can be made. @PermanentTemporary , you are so right! The UK has handled this horrendously and I am fascinated by the total acceptance that over 100 deaths a day is completely normal and a-ok. Our Government would be facing massive criticism of our pro capita death rate was at that daily.

It's not a competition. They've done an amazing job up until now but there was always gonna come a time when it took hold. Shame they didn't manage to vaccinate quicker

Australia also done very well up until now

@AlternativePerspective

I predicted from the very beginning that New Zealand would end up here.

The thing with a hard lockdown is that the virus didn’t spread at all and no-one gained immunity. So while the rest of the world is being vaccinated, and in many instances gaining immunity through having caught the virus and gaining antibodies, the virus had a place to spread in NZ.

I know many people who live in Aus and NZ and who say that vaccination take-up is so low because people are complacent. They were essentially led to believe that they were untouchable by COVID because of how hard they had responded and how quickly they had brought the virus under control.

If vaccination take-up remains as low as it is NZ run the very real risk of COVID rampaging through it if/when they open their borders, and they cannot keep their borders closed indefinitely, one of the biggest exports from New Zealand is the tourist industry, and this is going to obliterate their economy and the industry in the longer term if they don’t open up sooner.

I don’t think it’s smug to say that things aren’t looking good for NZ. It was said all along that we wouldn’t know who truly got things right and wrong and what those were until this is all over.

But complete lockdown simply isn’t a sustainable option for any country, and the price they will have to pay for keeping the virus away until it had saturated the rest of the world is likely to be high.

What immunity? This sounds like the failed herd immunity strategy UK gov was pushing last year. There's people getting Covid twice, now, so that isn't a strategy.

Yes, NZ had a built in geographic advantage; yes, the vaccine rollout should have been faster. But I don't think we can declare it a failure by any means. The goal isn't forever lockdown.

Most NZers are comfortable with lockdown as a means to prevent people dying

Oh my god, I feel like I have stepped back in time to April of last year when our own government in the UK was busy brainwashing US with the same slogan. Bunker mentality. Clapping, saucepans and stockpiling. I felt a shiver when I read your post.

It is not okay for you to sacrifice your life, endlessly for eternity, you should not be okay with that cactus Because covid isn't going anywhere!!! It is here to stay....and unless you can truly reach nearly 100% vaccination, and be ready at a moments notice to do it all over again for the next variant, this IS your new life.

If you did want to make it a competition then the UK has had one of the worst responses in the world. We've just been good at the vaccine roll out and people have very short memories

@stepupandbecounted

I’m just not prepared to accept that scale of loss

But most of the people most likely to die from covid are in the over 80s age bracket, that are indeed going to most likely die from something, it will just happen to be covid.
Do you think confining a whole nation to a life of lockdowns is worth shielding a small minority of people from what is ultimately going to happen anyway? Do you really expect the middle age and younger people in the country to accept that in the long term? The quality of their lives sacrificed in this way?

You are making the Johnson error of not understanding how life expectancy works. Once a person reaches 80, average life expectancy is irrelevant at that point.

Plus a covid death is horrible.

Plus younger people do die from covid, but many more are hospitalised and then disabled permanently.

Plus long covid.

I agree with PPs - the comments on this thread are a reflection of some serious hiding of reality that has gone on in the UK.

it is not okay for you to sacrifice your life, endlessly for eternity

That's never been on the cards though

LOL you have absolutely no idea what you are going on about. Sit down, the adults are talking now.

Is #nodebate normally how you deal with different opinions on an online discussion forum?