To be devastated that DH has to go back into the office

[ruraldream2021]

DH and I had it all planned. We were going to sell our home in the over-crowded, over-priced south east and move to a rural idyll many miles away, improving our quality of life and reducing our mortgage to nearly nothing.

DH works in a job in London and has been WFH throughout the pandemic, a situation we were given every reason to believe would continue.

We’ve had estate agents round to value our house and were literally about to put it on the market when DH gets an email from work saying that WFH is not panning out as hoped for them and he will be required back in the office four days a week, every week.

This has left our dreams in tatters as it means we will now have to remain close to London, because (understandably) DH does not want a very long commute.

DH works really hard at home and if anything he does longer hours, as he doesn’t need to commute.

I feel like our dreams have just gone up in a puff of smoke and am so devastated at the thought of staying put.

AIBU?

I think the idea is that you use some of the money saved from not commuting to make alternative arrangements if you don't have adequate workspace at home.

If this is the expectation you probably just vote with your feet and take a job that gives you office space to work in. Simple.

Another vote for looking for a new job if he can, and if it doesn’t affect your mortgage application too much. I’m not even looking at the moment and I had three recruiters call yesterday because apparently I put my portfolio on some website months ago. Most of the jobs in my industry are now remote with a couple of meetings a month, or 50/50 office and remote.

Or compromise on location? I am quite rural in SE and there’s a train station a 10 minute drive away with a train into London that take an hour. Perfectly doable, especially if you can negotiate one or two WFH days a week.

My dh is still working from home unless needed on site. Think there will flexibility where they can work at home and on site if they want. Dh definitely misses the work place banter so will be doing a mixture of the two but frustrating as nothings been set in stone yet and because we now have a dog I want to make sure she isn't left alone belone too long before finding a new job myself.

@RedToothBrush this is my experience exactly. I am also based in the NW and job hunting!
NW office salaries itself are lower, and WFH even lower. Why work for one when you can get a higher salary for one based in London (or anywhere in the SouthEast)? These salaries are based on the assumption that someone lives in the sticks (in our office days many colleagues did 2 days a week commuting in from Wales, areas surrounding Liverpool etc).
The difference in London in-person (NOT full time mind you, hybrid) salaries and fully remote are massive, around 10-15 K

The issue is that the salary is definitely high assuming people live in the sticks (the same way that the UK minimum wage would be a bumper payday for someone living in India, counting rupees). However the majority of people don't. So how are you going to decide a fair salary? It used to include location but doesnt any longer.

@TheKeatingFive

there are loads of options for places to work

Not practical ones.

Co working space costs money. Who pays? It’s not fair to ask the employee and makes no sense for an employers to pay for space without the benefits they’d get from having people in a designated office.

All the other suggestions like coffee shops and so forth are fine for the odd morning, but they aren’t work spaces, cost money too and are unsatisfactory in all kinds of ways.

I don't really get the 'coffee shop' thing. Firstly, coffee shops are just that - businesses which exist to sell food and drink. They are not ersatz offices, and don't want people spending hours hogging tables, using their wifi and having long, loud, boring conversations with Sarah from Accounts.

Secondly, confidentiality is a huge problem, as it is with WFH in general. I remember two years ago we all got hauled in for a lecture about leaving 'confidential' documents on the desks, or about not logging off from the computer when going to the bathroom for 5 minutes. And this was in offices which required a pass to enter, with only colleagues getting to see confidential info. Granted, not everyone works with confidential info, but given how strict data protection rules are these days, much of what is done in most workplaces could be classed as confidential. A cafe is no place for that.

Thirdly, people complain about not being able to work with all the 'chit-chat' at offices, but they can work in a public place, with babies screaming, espresso machines humming and people talking loudly about all manner of stuff?

@robinpenguins

I am quite well paid and would struggle and bag a job that would pay so well. That combined with the expectation that our cost of living would increase due to higher House prices just wouldn't work for us.

Dh works for a company who pay well. Some of the recruiters have been offering salaries that quite frankly take the piss based on his experience because they assume because he is in the nw he is paid peanuts. He has actually laughed out loud at a couple.

Ironically as he's in the process of trying to recruit himself what he's finding is because of the market being so competitive for the best employees its pushing up salaries for those who are good in the best companies whilst it seems to be driving down wages for more mediocre posts for those who don't want to pay for skills.

Salaries in Manchester in general have been going up for a while and probably peaked about 18months ago as there was an influx of companies moving North. They snapped up the best candidates initially and now theres a lot of scratching around for new talent rather than the usual chancers who talk the talk.

The London employers looking to cut their wage bill seem to have a bad attitude which isn't particularly concerned about well being. I don't think that bodes well.

Tbh i think a hybrid model is the best option to allow more flexibility but also provides support and physical contact for employees rather than either extreme of wfh only or completely office based as both have significant drawbacks.

I think the rush for the exit in London will be short lived tbh for this reason. The best staff

It sounds as though he'd assumed rather than had it guaranteed.

I don't really have much sympathy to be honest. Where I live many people in your situation have moved to, house prices are inflated and our wages are in no way commensurate with the living situation. So now we need London wages to live here but of course that won't happen.
I suggest getting a new job in the area you want to move to then seeing just how far that wage will go.
It's a complete mess and frankly I think everyone should be back in the office if that's what the employer wants.

I don't really get the 'coffee shop' thing. Firstly, coffee shops are just that - businesses which exist to sell food and drink. They are not ersatz offices, and don't want people spending hours hogging tables, using their wifi and having long, loud, boring conversations with Sarah from Accounts.

Quite.

Pre pandemic I actually loved occasionally working from a coffee shop if I’d a report to do or something. But you really can’t stay more than about 2 hrs without being a massive cheeky fucker. It’s not a substitute office in any way shape or form.

What are the ‘loads of options’?

Of places to work.

Where? Cafes that don't want you. Sharing an office hub and paying for it.

Still involves no human interaction.

@PinkTonic actually it does as it doesn't factor in travel time!
With DH WFH we can drop off at 8:45 and pick up at 4:45 rather that 7am-6:30pm it makes a massive difference to both how long we get to see DS and the money aspect!

Without wanting to sound overly combative though @PinkTonic you did presumably choose to take jobs nearly two hours away.

How much do they want/need him? What's his immediate boss like? Has he tried negotiating? My OH's work wants everyone back in 3 days a week, he didn't want to and spoke to his boss who said he was ok to work from home as long as he came in if he was needed. He has a great boss though, works in a different office to the rest of the team and already had one team member who worked from home PT pre pandemic. Got to be worth a try though.

It sucks but I'm really not surprised that companies are expecting a return to normal. I think people who assumed wfh would be forever for everyone are in for a big shock. Making huge life decisions like uprooting to Devon or wherever is such a risky move without a contract to say you can be home based forever. So many people are in for a shock IMHO.

I think the idea is that you use some of the money saved from not commuting to make alternative arrangements if you don't have adequate workspace at home.

I deliberately moved so I could cycle to work, so feel a bit bitter that now I should apparently be paying for my own workspace out of the money I save on puncture repair kits...

I actually do have sympathy for the OP, as someone who has the opposite problem - I want to go back to the office and it's increasingly looking like we won't (definitely not until spring 2022, but they've been saying it won't be for at least another few months for a year now, so I doubt that date is real). We also planned out a much nicer life - very short, car-free commute for me; house in gorgeous (expensive) location - but unfortunately we did it in February 2020, bought the new house and now we're stuck with a house that's pointlessly close to a location that's now irrelevant to me and - crucially - too small if it's also my workplace. It's also a long time to be left in limbo; I'm desperate for them just to confirm that we'll be WFH forever more so that I can either look for a new job or move to a four bed house somewhere cheaper. It's not great having planned a life that no longer works so well due to factors outside your control and it isn't great not being given the information you need to change your plans either, so I can see why this has come to a big, destabilising shock to OP - they thought they did know what the future held.

I get the initial disappointment that you've had to postpone your dream, but it's not like you can't move in the future once your DH has found a job in the area you want to move to. For what it's worth we were planning on moving house in 2020...

We had our house valued, had figured out areas we'd like to move to and spotted a few potential houses we'd like to view if we got an offer for our's quickly. Unfortunately someone broke into our business during lockdown causing a lot of expensive damage and stealing valuable and essential stock. The insurance company ended up taking a year to settle our claim. In the meantime, the house moving fund had to be used to fix up our business and we missed out on the stamp duty holiday through no fault of our own. Sadly, life doesn't always go according to plan.

Stay put a little longer and look for ways to invest your savings so you have a bigger fund to put towards your move. I agree with PPs who are saying the influx of people seeking the 'good life' won't last more than a couple of years. The reality of living rurally if you've never experienced it can be quite far removed from the brief glimpses you get whilst holidaying or what you see on TV.

I think taking the WFH aspect out of it, the problem is that there is an offer of a different sort of life and then that hope is dashed a bit and that’s always hard.

The option of the different sort of life was always there though. And it still is. What wasn’t on offer was London salaries and opportunities without the downsides.

Plenty of us live in rural or semi rural locations with nicer surroundings, lower cost of living and without awful commutes, but we accepted the lower salaries and fewer opportunities as the trade off.

I work in the public sector and it’s written in to contracts for homeworkers that they must have suitable childcare during working hours

Covid/closed schools excepted, that's very wise of them (though many private sector do it too). However imposing it's not easy, when too many hope to shush the kids when on calls, and once caught out insist the childcare let them down on "just that day", or that it's actually "the neighbour's kids who just called round"

My own favourite was the local lady who used WFH as an opportunity to start childminding - unregistered of course

Just because you actually do get your employment contract changed, to include wfh, or hybrid, contracts can change again. Say in 2 or 3 years the employer decides this isn't working so well, minor contract changes can be negotiated/basically forced through (if not totally unreasonable). So don't think that anything you do get is set in stone, forever, because they can change again.

This has left our dreams in tatters as it means we will now have to remain close to London, because (understandably) DH does not want a very long commute

Or he could get a new job that allowed WFH, or apply for jobs within a sensible commute from the new location.

What do you do for work?

@somewhereovertherain

London Salary should require you to live in London.

Maybe you need to look properly at your life, take a pay cut and move out and get a life.

YABU maybe be less greedy and live a little.

In the last 18 months our house prices have shot up due to the number of DFLs who have moved into the area. Many have reconciled the 1hr 15 min, occasional, commute with the benefits of living by the sea! You do not have to live in London to earn a London salary. Many DFLs have told me they will put up with the commute rather than go back to living in London!

WFH will not be fully embedded with most companies for another year to 18 months. At that point people can plan with certainty. Until then I think most people would be ill advised to move house.

I think the idea is that you use some of the money saved from not commuting to make alternative arrangements if you don't have adequate workspace at home.

Sorry to come back to this, but the more I think about it the less I understand the point.

Co-working spaces are overwhelmingly in big cities too. The idea of every small village/town having a cosy co-working space hasn’t come to pass yet probably won’t ever, let’s be honest

And not everyone has an expensive commute, not by a long shot. Many people cycle, etc.

So I don’t really see any benefits in a co working space for people who’d prefer to be in an office. And I certainly don’t think they’d be thrilled about having to pay for the privilege.

@countrytown

I think the last 18 months has made a lot of home workers quite entitled.

Why is this a bad thing? It's good for employees to have power.

They have the power to decide whether to stay working for their employer and look for another. If good people are demanding wfh then the employment market will adjust accordingly. I don’t think it’s good for employees to be entitled which in my book is expecting their full pay for not delivering what they are contracted to do during the times they are contracted to work. If you read my post that’s what I was saying.