Possibly a sensitive topic but AIBU to say no to this?

[JudgeJerry]

Have lurked here for a little while but my first post.

My husband and I are separating. There is a whole host of reasons for this but one of the big ones is I just felt like I got no help from him with anything, he was always working and everything else was left to me (I also work). Resentment was starting to build massively and he has never done anything to change things despite us going over this so many times, suggesting counselling etc...

We have one DC together and my husband has two older DC from a previous relationship who live with him full time and see their mother on a very ad-hoc basis, contact with their DM has been this way for about 4 years now (issues I won't go into here).

We are trying to arrange contact arrangements with our DC, and we have been arguing basically about my DSC. He thinks it would be right for them to continue having some form of schedule to see myself and their half sibling. I do not agree. They will obviously still see their half sibling, our DC, when they go to their Dad's but I don't see why this needs to involve me.

Whilst I do care for my step children, this is one of the things that caused so many issues in our relationship, that I felt he pushed everything onto me in regards to the children, I basically took over everything and he didn't change a thing. Which is something that seems to be common place from my reading on here.

I highly suspect he is saying this is 'right and fair' so that he continues getting help from me with childcare.

Quite honestly I'm just ready for a clean break or as clean a break as we can possibly manage with DC in the mix and, whilst I don't mind the occasional tea with me and DC or whatever, I do not want to put myself in the position of committing to contact or a schedule with his older children.

I appreciate though it's going to be big changes for everyone and probably a lot of upset. I did take on the role a mother probably would in terms of practical care for DSC day to day but they certainly don't see me as their Mum and still very much love their DM despite the issues.

I just don't know what to do for the best.

I get it OP, I know a similar set up to yours, mum ended up in a mental facility, dad had custody of two children. Girlfriend comes along and he just works, all the hours, in construction, she parents his kids.

He needs to hire a nanny and work less, not use you as a substitute Mum, sadly dropping him in the mire is the only way to do this. Sad for the DC. When one is old enough he will be leaving that one with the younger sibling.

I would suggest keeping contact with the Dc, tea at yours, days out etc when older get their mobile numbers. Don’t get sucked into a routine. Your ex has horribly let them and you down

@JudgeJerry
The problem with being a step parent is that you're damned if you do and damned if you don't!

I am a step parent though and know how hard it can be. I think you need to have a discussion with dsc and explain what's happening. They're old enough to understand that. I'd also initially suggest that you keep initial contact reasonably frequent, but with the proviso to your stbxh that this will stop if he takes the piss!! I reduce it down to something that you're more comfortable - maybe tea at your house on the weekend they won't see dc - but that they can talk or text you about anything.

What's going to hamper all of this is your stbxh and his history of taking the piss!!

@FrangipaniDeLaSqueegeeMop he got a well done for 'evading the step parent bullet' and never seeing his step son again that called him daddy for 7 years?
I see the point you are trying to make but that is brutal on that child and makes for upsetting reading and maybe isn't an example to follow for OP.

@TwoLeftElbows

I keep coming back to this thread.

I think @billy1966 is right to be rejecting the idea of balance at this point. Balance is not the aim.

Think of positive influences in your life. As a child, were there any adults who had a real impact on you? My very best teachers I probably saw once or twice a week for a year or two - a tiny blink in the course of my whole life. My very favourite aunty lived in Canada and I only met her once every few years, but it was always amazing. Others have similar stories - the far-away grandparents or uncles they saw rarely, but who always made them feel special. This is what you offer those kids now, you give them an interested adult who builds their self esteem a bit. They don't need childcare from you, they don't need big chunks of your time. They would really benefit from small but very good quality chunks - I hope, small enough that you can enjoy them too. They don"t have to be frequent. Stand firm with your ex and stick to your boundaries so you can be the best "interested adult" you can be for those kids - but always in quality, not quantity.

I think this is very wise, and definitely more in keeping with the often quite formative experiences I had with positive adults in my life who were not my parents. They were not regular by any means, but they did not need to be to be special.

Omg haven't read the whole thread but have read all of your replies. I'm obviously very selfish because NO I don't think you should continue contact with your husbands children. Honestly you owe them nothing, you've already done more than enough in the 4 years they've lived with you. They will see your dc when they are at their dad's. I'm a stepmother, 1 lives full time with us but if me and her dad were to split up I would not be parenting her in anyway, shape or form and she will have a relationship with her step siblings when they're at their dads. Don't muddy the waters, or confuse things now just say a blanket no.

You chose to marry a man who had young children and become a step mother to them. I think you have some responsibility to them. I don't think you have any responsibility to your STBX.

I understand that you don't want to continue parenting them, but I don't think it is fair to them to come into their lives and then not continue a relationship with them.

I think it would be fair to see them at least once a week. I wouldn't be doing stuff just to benefit STBX though. I wouldn't be offering regular overnights etc.

@FrangipaniDeLaSqueegeeMop

It's funny, my brother was married and had a step son who was 5 when he met him. Step son even called him daddy and they tried to get a name change so he shares my brothers name but his dad refused. When he divorced his wife when stepson was 11, he never saw him after he packed his bags and left, even though him and his exW had a 4yo son at this point.

Not a single person told my brother to stay involved in SS's life. No one said he should have him over for dinners or sleepovers, no one called him cold or selfish. In fact he got 'well done' a lot for evading that step parent bullet.

And this child DID see my brother as his dad.

I wonder what could possibly be the factor in why OP is getting grief and my brother didn't. What could it possible be 🧐

The simple answer is that your brother has not started a Mumsnet debate on the subject. I think you brother was wrong never to see her stepchild again after parenting him for 6 years, being called Daddy by him and even trying to get the boy's surname changed to his.
I am chilled by the fact that you say that child saw your brother as his dad and yet your brother never saw him again. Absolutely awful. and yet you seem to be suggesting nobody would think this is awful because it is a man walking away? I think it is dreadful for any step-parent, male or female to do that.

I think what your ex wants is immaterial - he can fuck off with any demands.

I think what your DC, and what your DSCs want, is material. If the DSC want to continue to have a relationship with you and your DC that isn't just seeing them at their dad's, then I think one evening, inc dinner, a week is a fair offer. Ad hoc is too unsettling for three kids who have just had their lives turned upside down. Routine is important.

I understand your desire for a clean break, and to protect yourself - and I am completely supportive of your telling your ex to go fuck himself - but the DSC are different. You have, for better or worse, been a significant part of their lives, and it will hurt them if you disappear.

(And I know men get to do whatever they like in these situations, and I judge them for it.)

@Askingforfriend

You chose to marry a man who had young children and become a step mother to them. I think you have some responsibility to them. I don't think you have any responsibility to your STBX.

I understand that you don't want to continue parenting them, but I don't think it is fair to them to come into their lives and then not continue a relationship with them.

I think it would be fair to see them at least once a week. I wouldn't be doing stuff just to benefit STBX though. I wouldn't be offering regular overnights etc.

At least once a week is loads 🙄

Being a step parent is no more a permanent commitment than being in a relationship is, because that is essentially all it means - in a relationship with a parent. If she can leave a relationship, she can leave entirely.

@JudgeJerry I agree you've had a hard time on here and you haven't deserved that, you've done your best but your exDH will never change, he thinks parenting is always someone elses job. I'm sorry for your DSC and think it's lovely you still want to see them but no way are they your responsibility.
Stop waiting for your Ex to tell you his expectations, you know he's going to want far more than you want to give so just tell him what you're prepared to do and then stand your ground. He's had an easy ride for far too long so he'll try all the tricks to get out of doing the childcare but don't let him blackmail you- it's more than time he stepped up. Maybe leave him a list of 'phone numbers relating too the DSC's needs then let him get on.
Please let us know how you get on Op

So, reading through I think it's fair to say you recognise these two children are already traumatised and will feel rejected/abandoned if you disappear entirely, but you are worried about how to balance that with extracting yourself from their father's control and domination as understandably you don't want to leave him but have nothing change.

My observations and practical suggestions...

I think because his control has basically been all you've known for your adult life it is very difficult right now for you to be able to imagine him being a presence in your life without still controlling you. For instance, you've mentioned a few times that you're worried if you have a set day where you pick them up to bring for tea / he drops off for tea that he will start pushing boundaries with phone calls saying he's running late so can you do school run etc. To me, the solution to that is very simple - you say no and don't enter discussion.

Right now, you live in the same home as them and you are a bit cowed from years of his domination. It is very difficult to say no to school runs and bedtime routines and all the rest when you are living in the same house (and you will also face consequences in your home for not submitting).

Whereas when you live separately your "no" is powerful and something you can enforce. He won't be living with you to make life uncomfortable at home if you say no, the children won't be living there for him to abdicate and get away with it.

Does the prospect of saying no to him frighten you in some way? Like when you imagine the hypothetical scenario of him phoning and trying to get you doing random school runs once you've separated, does it frighten you to imagine yourself simply saying no and sticking to it? Can you just not even imagine having the power to say no?

The big difference once you are living separately and on the way to divorce, is that you are going to have power and control you have not had before. It will take you some time to learn to navigate that given the background and that it will be new unfamiliar territory for you, but you will have power and with a bit of time you will be comfortable with it.

So even if you choose to have limited set fun visits from the children for their benefit not his, because you unlike him are a decent person (a framing that will also make a difference to how you feel about it, instead of viewing it as him winning or whatever), it won't be how things are now. It won't be a continuation of the situation you are seeking to leave, it will be very, very different.

So you can decide what your boundaries are and you can enforce them. If he tries to push them you say no and stand firm. If you initially struggle adjusting to having that power you can write them down for yourself and write a short letter to yourself reminding you that you can say no, that you have power now, that any contact you have is for the welfare and benefit of the children not him, etc. (Written reminders can really help in moments where we feel overwhelmed).

For instance, those boundaries might be no school runs, no medical appointments (other than an emergency while with you obviously), no parents evenings, no regular sleepovers/no sleepovers, no proper parenting basically. But that you will see them regularly and consistently from a relationship point of view to spend time doing fun things without the parenting role - and then the types of things you're happy with (coming over for tea a couple of times per month, a fun day out once a month, a sleepover in the summer, birthday cards, whatever).

Model it on a family friend or aunt type relationship - maybe write yourself bullet points of what you won't do anymore and what you will do. That will keep it clear in your mind if he tries to push your boundaries and also enable you to be clear and consistent with the children (both in how you behave and how you communicate or answer their questions) so they feel secure from knowing where they stand with you.

You don't have to cut them out of your life to cut off their domineering father's power over you. Although I appreciate it's probably quite hard for you to visualise that now, that's just because his domination has worn you down - it will be possible and you will be able to see that once you have some distance from him.

It's a tough one, isn't it. In your shoes, to be honest, I'd likely hold firm on not facilitating contact between the sibs while it's on "your time". The kids will all be together whenever your ex has the kids; that the norm for half and step siblings, isn't it? Even full siblings who live together, if they do different activities, etc. aren't together all the time.

I would also turn the expectation on its head a bit too - you can agree that the getting the sibs together on "your time" would be great - but husband facilitates it. If he wants to take them all out for tea together on random weeknight, that's great! But he arranges it, picks them up from yours and drops them off. (Assuming you'd be ok with having "less" time with your kids.) This allows the sibling relationship to flourish but doesn't put any of the burden on you.

Honestly, as the spouse of a self-employed workaholic myself, I think your husband is a cheeky bastard. I doubt his concerns have anything to do with your relationship with his kids. He just wants you to keep managing his life. Shame on him for playing on your relationship with the kids to do that.

I don't agree that you should be seeing them "at least" once a week. What about the second stepmum, when she gets fed up after 5 years? Is it going to be you Tuesdays, her Wednesdays?

If @JudgeJerry carries on doing all the childcare, filling the gaping holes where the dad should be, how and why would he ever step up

Even if for only a short time, he has to be left to work it all out, to put parenting in place, sort childcare, and see how he needs to work to care for the children he has

THEN when he’s got it, when he’s realised the work that he has to do, the responsibility etc, that’s when @JudgeJerry can see how it suits her to have them over

This guy will never step up if he doesn’t have to.

@user16395699

So, reading through I think it's fair to say you recognise these two children are already traumatised and will feel rejected/abandoned if you disappear entirely, but you are worried about how to balance that with extracting yourself from their father's control and domination as understandably you don't want to leave him but have nothing change.

My observations and practical suggestions...

I think because his control has basically been all you've known for your adult life it is very difficult right now for you to be able to imagine him being a presence in your life without still controlling you. For instance, you've mentioned a few times that you're worried if you have a set day where you pick them up to bring for tea / he drops off for tea that he will start pushing boundaries with phone calls saying he's running late so can you do school run etc. To me, the solution to that is very simple - you say no and don't enter discussion.

Right now, you live in the same home as them and you are a bit cowed from years of his domination. It is very difficult to say no to school runs and bedtime routines and all the rest when you are living in the same house (and you will also face consequences in your home for not submitting).

Whereas when you live separately your "no" is powerful and something you can enforce. He won't be living with you to make life uncomfortable at home if you say no, the children won't be living there for him to abdicate and get away with it.

Does the prospect of saying no to him frighten you in some way? Like when you imagine the hypothetical scenario of him phoning and trying to get you doing random school runs once you've separated, does it frighten you to imagine yourself simply saying no and sticking to it? Can you just not even imagine having the power to say no?

The big difference once you are living separately and on the way to divorce, is that you are going to have power and control you have not had before. It will take you some time to learn to navigate that given the background and that it will be new unfamiliar territory for you, but you will have power and with a bit of time you will be comfortable with it.

So even if you choose to have limited set fun visits from the children for their benefit not his, because you unlike him are a decent person (a framing that will also make a difference to how you feel about it, instead of viewing it as him winning or whatever), it won't be how things are now. It won't be a continuation of the situation you are seeking to leave, it will be very, very different.

So you can decide what your boundaries are and you can enforce them. If he tries to push them you say no and stand firm. If you initially struggle adjusting to having that power you can write them down for yourself and write a short letter to yourself reminding you that you can say no, that you have power now, that any contact you have is for the welfare and benefit of the children not him, etc. (Written reminders can really help in moments where we feel overwhelmed).

For instance, those boundaries might be no school runs, no medical appointments (other than an emergency while with you obviously), no parents evenings, no regular sleepovers/no sleepovers, no proper parenting basically. But that you will see them regularly and consistently from a relationship point of view to spend time doing fun things without the parenting role - and then the types of things you're happy with (coming over for tea a couple of times per month, a fun day out once a month, a sleepover in the summer, birthday cards, whatever).

Model it on a family friend or aunt type relationship - maybe write yourself bullet points of what you won't do anymore and what you will do. That will keep it clear in your mind if he tries to push your boundaries and also enable you to be clear and consistent with the children (both in how you behave and how you communicate or answer their questions) so they feel secure from knowing where they stand with you.

You don't have to cut them out of your life to cut off their domineering father's power over you. Although I appreciate it's probably quite hard for you to visualise that now, that's just because his domination has worn you down - it will be possible and you will be able to see that once you have some distance from him.

This is a really helpful post, IMO.

Letting him work this out, could be the best thing in the long term for him and his kids

Stop waiting for your Ex to tell you his expectations

And yes to this. Again, this is an adjustment that will be part of you learning to use the power and control over your own life. The fact that you've been conditioned to wait for him to call the shots etc is a reflection of the extent of his domination and will be part of why you're struggling to visualise how you could have a relationship with the children without him continuing to dominate you. You're not used to having power/control, you're not used to being able to say no, you're not used to having choices and have therefore lost the ability to spot when you have choices open to you to influence a situation.

Doing your bullet point list of your boundaries and expectations of what you will and won't do is a good step towards you breaking your controlled mindset. It's part of you re-training yourself to be able to see where you have power and choices.

For instance, you have the freedom to make the choice between either waiting for him to tell you what he wants and then feeling pressured to submit versus you deciding what you are prepared to do and sticking to it. I get the impression this is one of many choices you just couldn't see because you're so used to being controlled and not having choices?

This is a good example of a point where you have choices available that maybe you didn't realise, but in future will learn to spot and can practise exercising your freedom and power to make choices in your own life. This is all part of why it will be different after you leave the relationship with him and are living separately, even if you still see the children.

Doing your bullet point list of your boundaries and expectations of what you will and won't do is a good step towards you breaking your controlled mindset. It's part of you re-training yourself to be able to see where you have power and choices.

Just to be clear, by this I literally only mean considering what you will and won't do in terms of your future relationship with the children. Trying to figure out anything to do with how he will manage their childcare and parenting is not part of what you need to be setting out, discussing or trying to figure out.

Op I would consider seeing DSC on ad hoc basics, nothing set in stone, expecting your ex to drop them off and pick them up. No school runs or any other favours and I completely get it. It is not being mean. It is protecting yourself. He needs to step up (finally!) and know you aren't going to be there to parent his children.
They are at the age when they can txt/ call you so you can stay in touch with them this way if you wanted to.

Those people saying that OP should have significant contact with the DSCs - if that means she needs a bigger house, who's going to pay for that?! Why should OP have to pay more for a property to accommodate children that aren't hers and that she hasn't got PR for.

A CMS claim wouldn't cover DSC either so she would be totally reliant on her ex doing "the right thing".

It is a tricky situation @JudgeJerry and I wish you all the luck with negotiating it but no, YANBU to say no. Your STBExH has to facilitate your joint DC's relationship with his children and figure out his own childcare issues.

There really isn't a right or wrong here. What is right for 1 party will be wrong for the other! I think you need to find a middle ground for everyone if possible. So have contact, as this will be best for the children, but not every day/weekend, as you've said this wouldn't work for you.
Would having an open and honest discussion together with all the children be an option? You'd be amazed by what kids can understand and express their feelings and thoughts about it

I think the advice from @user16395699 is great. It'd be good to create a relationship that is similar to an aunt or a family friend if you can manage it. That way, the kids are supported but you don't commit to scheduled regular visits. You could also focus on having them round for tea, or to go on day trips when it suits you rather than when your exH wants you for childcare.

Good luck. It is always difficult when trying to change family dynamics and it sounds like your soon to be exH will try to push to get his own way. Hold firm and ignore any emotional blackmail.

“When I split with my ex, nobody rammed it down my throat to have exdsc round. Part of the reason I split with my ex was the stresses of being with someone with a child, so the last thing I wanted was for it to carry on when it didn’t need to.
I have kept in touch with exdsc, but it’s not been forced or rammed down my throat or anything, which make our relationship more natural and more friendly. We speak maybe once or twice a month or something and they come for tea occasionally too. And family occasions such as my children’s birthdays involve them too. I wish them well and want the best for them, but I don’t play a big part in their lives any more and I think that’s normal”

This sounds very sensible and what I would expect from a separation involving SC. Good to hear from someone on the other side.

Thank you. I’m happy with how things are and so is everyone else. No need for anything more.

He will not take his parenting seriously until he absolutely has to.

By you in any way stepping in to parent his children you are helping him to continue to avoid his children.

Step away.
Agree nothing.
Refuse any talk of balance.
Tell the school you are no longer involved in any way.
Stop doing ANYTHING that benefits him.
Focus on organising accommodation.
Go stay with family if you can.

Pack a bag and just go.

This will give you immediate space to be stonger and resolute.

You have a great future ahead of you without this bully in your life.

I think your DC might be really sad only seeing their siblings EOW.

I think I would offer to pick up and have DSC for a play and tea weekly on a set day. That is straightforward and if you're picking up he can't let you down by not dropping off or asking you to pick up anyway etc.

If your ex says "well you picked them up on Weds, why can't you pick up Thurs", I mean this kindly but just grow a backbone and say no. Grey rock. No. No. No.

Make it v clear the arrangement is fixed with no negotiation on his part.

I think that would be MUCH easier than doing it as hoc, he will be on your case for "ad hoc" care all the time.

Do the fixed stuff, and only the fixed stuff.

In a few years the DSC will be older and probably not interested in your DC tbh. May as well make the most of the relationship now.