Possibly a sensitive topic but AIBU to say no to this?

[JudgeJerry]

Have lurked here for a little while but my first post.

My husband and I are separating. There is a whole host of reasons for this but one of the big ones is I just felt like I got no help from him with anything, he was always working and everything else was left to me (I also work). Resentment was starting to build massively and he has never done anything to change things despite us going over this so many times, suggesting counselling etc...

We have one DC together and my husband has two older DC from a previous relationship who live with him full time and see their mother on a very ad-hoc basis, contact with their DM has been this way for about 4 years now (issues I won't go into here).

We are trying to arrange contact arrangements with our DC, and we have been arguing basically about my DSC. He thinks it would be right for them to continue having some form of schedule to see myself and their half sibling. I do not agree. They will obviously still see their half sibling, our DC, when they go to their Dad's but I don't see why this needs to involve me.

Whilst I do care for my step children, this is one of the things that caused so many issues in our relationship, that I felt he pushed everything onto me in regards to the children, I basically took over everything and he didn't change a thing. Which is something that seems to be common place from my reading on here.

I highly suspect he is saying this is 'right and fair' so that he continues getting help from me with childcare.

Quite honestly I'm just ready for a clean break or as clean a break as we can possibly manage with DC in the mix and, whilst I don't mind the occasional tea with me and DC or whatever, I do not want to put myself in the position of committing to contact or a schedule with his older children.

I appreciate though it's going to be big changes for everyone and probably a lot of upset. I did take on the role a mother probably would in terms of practical care for DSC day to day but they certainly don't see me as their Mum and still very much love their DM despite the issues.

I just don't know what to do for the best.

I think it's entirely reasonable for a person, very courageously leaving a controlling and coercive relationship, to not allow any possibility of control and coercion continuing, by using the children as a potential lever/weapon.

I do very much feel for these poor children, who have drawn horrendous short straws in the parenting stakes. However, parental rights and responsibilities, remain with the parents, not the step-parent.

For practical advice, how about stbx asks his nanny to bring his kids round to yours once a week - as a set arrangement. Then you won't be doing any of the running around after them, the nanny will be picking them up from school and bringing them and liaising by phone with you. You could say that it will always be a takeaway dinner, and then you won't be cooking and washing up for them. You could increase the number of visits during holiday times to full days a week which the nanny manages. That way, the DSC will continue to have a relationship with you, the kids will understand that friendship underpins all romantic relationships and that friendships can last, after the marriage has broken down. Everyone will be clear that the picking up from school commitments and organising play are the responsibility of the nanny.

This will also give you a chance to meet the nanny who you will want to meet, as she will be doing most of the caring for your own child, when they are staying at their dad's. Set up a good relationship with the nanny, so you can talk about your child's likes and dislikes, so they know how to deal with these. If your stbx is a workaholic, he won't be putting much thought into activities to do with your child, when he sees them.

As your stbx works all the time, it is beyond question that he will engage a nanny. He must be earning good money, having worked all those hours, and so affording childcare won't be a problem for him. Perhaps he feels he has to work those hours to secure his children's financial future - especially in a post-Covid world. Perhaps he is obsessive and has some issues. It might be helpful to suggest that he gets counseling for these, if you feel he is neurotic about work.

It is perfectly possible to separate the work you feel you have to do, when with your DSC, from the love and emotional support which flows between the siblings. You can facilitate their contact and all the good which goes with building family life, without doing the donkey work.

Write stbx a letter saying that you wished you'd been more assertive during your marriage and that you had insisted that he engage a nanny. I cannot imagine a situation where childcare seems to have been never mentioned. You owe it to yourself, to make sure this doesn't happen in future. Also, if you have good friends and relatives whom you are close to, tell them how you feel, so that, in future, you can gain the moral support to stand up for yourself and to confirm your own feelings about what is right. In this day and age, and if you do not belong to a closed community or religious sect that burdens wives with all the home duties, how can childcare never have been discussed, especially when the wife works?

Blimey OP there are some horrible people on here!

I've been in a similar situation, albeit the SKids lived with their mother. I ended up doing literally everything for them when they were with us, and after I split with their dad still ended up feeding them and doing quite a lot for the first couple of years. It was too much, and it tapered more after their dad met someone else, thank goodness. I saw them yesterday, I still care for them, but they are not mine, and I had enough on my plate!

My DH is an amazing step to my oldest, and we have a lovely life, but I cannot imagine him having to make room for the ex SC too. Where does it end? They have a step father, a new step mother, a previous step mother (me), and actually their mum was briefly married before this one too. It gets ridiculous.

I would say to him that you will have a set day every fortnight, collect from school, and he can collect from you by your youngest' bed time. If you want to invite them on days out, birthdays, treats, you will organise those on your terms. I'd tell him, in no uncertain terms, that his lack of care is the main reason for splitting, and you will NOT be unpaid childcare for them moving forward, that you care for them and want to see them, but are not their parent and won't be doing him favours on this.

I think you are right to be wary of doing any childcare on a routine basis. From the children’s point of view having a regular opportunity to see you would be emotionally helpful I expect. I think I would offer to take them out for a day at the weekend 1 Saturday a month (or similar). Would it be worth taking them 1 at a time for a few hours so you can actually chat to them? Quality not quantity? If your ex is really concerned for their emotional well being that is the sort of contact with you that may help them. If he wants childcare and logistical help then he will obviously reject the offer of you taking them 1 at a time.

I really feel for you, op. It's a difficult position.
It's really your stbxh's job to sort out his priorities, work less (as you've said him working so much is unnecessary) and put his children first. Especially when they have practically zero relationship with their mother. Those kids need their dad. They need to see one parent gives a damn.
It makes me mad hearing he isn't capable of doing this for them... Why have children?

I just feel that although you have a right to step back and see the DSC on a more relaxed basis, with their dad doing the running around, it's likely not going to happen, and essentially you're going to just another one who has abandoned them. You'll stop seeing the DSC and they're the ones that are going to suffer and feel more rejection. I'm not saying that to attack you but it's just how I think it's going to go down and likely how it's going to make them feel. You have after all been caring for them for 4 years, whether you wanted to or not, and for them, you will mean something.

I don't have much in the way of suggestion. Your stbxh needs a kick up the backside and hit with the reality stick that he is now responsible for those two children and it's HIS job to help keep up the relationship with you. But I do think you also have some responsibility here as the adult who looked after two children for 4 years.

Your priority, at this stage, is to you and your DC. That’s it, no more, no less.

You need to hold firm that you are taking absolutely zero responsibilities on for your SC. With someone like this it is a slippery slope, if you agree to once a fortnight, expect sudden texts asking for your ‘help’ with pick ups etc.

I would simply state that you are not available in any form for your SC’s. Definitely no overnights. No school runs/ collections. This is for him to step up and figure out. Either he needs to make some drastic changes to his work/ life balance and recognise he is a fulltime parent. Or with the money he is hopefully earning from the ridiculous hours he is working - organise for paid childcare in the form of a nanny/ au pair. Like every other working parent has to do.

I’m sorry to say but you cannot let guilt or emotional guilt tripping/ manipulation allow you to continue to be involved in areas you really don’t want to be.

In terms of joint dinners (as other people have suggested), I’m sorry but I also don’t think this is in the children’s best interests. The split is going to be hard on all the children - any parent who has been through this can attest to it. But if you are taking this step, then I think a critical onus on you is also to be incredibly firm and boundaried. Things like joint dinners/ teas/ blurred boundaries are going to be very confusing for all the children (they will want a reconciliation and for things to go back to where they were). I also think you will find them incredibly hard emotionally and find yourself pulled back in.

Sadly I think your husband will use every tool available to him (including his children) to keep you engaged and at his beck and call. If he cared about his children, you wouldn’t be in this situation. He would have made critical life changes to accommodate becoming a full time parent. He didn’t, that tells me that fundamentally he’s absolutely selfish and does what works for him.

That’s what you’re dealing with and with someone like that, you have to have very clear boundaries.

Get to mediation. Be firm. Focus on your contact schedule with him re your children. I would also advise counselling for you to hold your boundaries firm.

He has to step up and parent HIS kids. They are not your responsibility.

If you were a man OP, you’d not be getting any of the guilt trip comments.

If a 24 year old man had married an older woman who then dumped all childcare for her children onto him, against his will, and he actually did the best he could and stepped up to be a parent to them, he would be celebrated.

If after begging his wife to stop using him as childcare, he finally wanted to leave her and suggested that he still see the kids on an ad-hoc basis, they would think he was the second coming, not one would call him selfish. The ex wife would be called all the names under the sun too, and the absent father probably would barely be mentioned, because apparently, you can’t force fathers to be parents, you can only force unrelated women to.

As a total aside, a male friend ended up being the resident parent to both his DD and his step DD. He and his ex split and his SDD wanted to stay with him. He raised her as his own. I was totally agog at that and feel that his ex used him. I think SDD stayed with him for about 4 years and he was happy to do this as both girls had a very close bond.

So raising SDC isn’t unheard of but I would find it quite unusual. I’d also want to know why the parent can’t look after their own child.

In your situation, OP, I’d be telling ex that you won’t be planning on having his children at yours until you have settled yourself and your own DC and you had time to think about what will work for you.

Make no promises now and that way you can avoid disappointment. Once settled you will know what feels right for you, especially as EXDH won’t be there to nag and pester you. It will also be easier to be rational without the SDC close by too.

I feel sorry for the step children as they have rubbish biological parents but this Ian not your responsibility, OP.

You may also need to steel yourself for the fact that when you hold this firm line, you will blink and there is another woman suddenly in his life/ his DC’s lives doing the running around.
You may not be contemplating another partner but IME, men like this stay single for 2 seconds.

That will be a head fuck for you and his DC. The more involved you remain, the messier this becomes.

I’m not suggesting that you disappear from these children’s lives. They are at the age where they have their own devices (or can be given access to one) and they can FaceTime you/ your DC.
You can perhaps agree to a meet up once a fortnight on neutral ground (pizza/ park/ icecream). Then see what happens organically as the 12 year old will be getting increasing independence over the next few years.

But outside of that, I hold firm. You don’t owe him anything when it comes to having his children as part of any contact schedule.

@Candydreamer

I find it mildly disgusting based on the OPs most recent update that there are still posters (looking at you *@Qwerty789*) that are suggesting OP chose this or that she should essentially stay trapped in the routine of being used and abused by this man.

Well done btw OP for having the balls to leave, a lot of people stay in bad relationships so I applaud you for recognizing that you are worth more. Every time you update I feel more strongly that a clean break is the best thing for all of you, shock, yes even for the children who will maintain a sibling relationship when they are all with THEIR father, the common parent here.

Hear hear

Gosh poor kids, how unfortunate and sad to have two ineffective parents.
The OP cannot be expected to offer the same amount of support to the poor step children it is neither practical or fair on the OP.
At the end of the day it is up to their own parents to make arrangements for them and look after them. I feel so sorry for them and the effect it will have on them in the future. But it is not the responsibility of the OP.
Their Father and Mother will have to grow up and look after their own DC's, or pay for a Nanny etc.
I'm sure the OP does not want to see the SDC's neglected, but she has been put put in an awkward position by her H and his Ex W.

I think, even though it would be helping him, a set, gradual reduction in contact, so you're weaning DSC off you rather than severing the relationship. But with set dates and absolutely no chance of you doing more or for longer.

@Naunet

If you were a man OP, you’d not be getting any of the guilt trip comments.

If a 24 year old man had married an older woman who then dumped all childcare for her children onto him, against his will, and he actually did the best he could and stepped up to be a parent to them, he would be celebrated.

If after begging his wife to stop using him as childcare, he finally wanted to leave her and suggested that he still see the kids on an ad-hoc basis, they would think he was the second coming, not one would call him selfish. The ex wife would be called all the names under the sun too, and the absent father probably would barely be mentioned, because apparently, you can’t force fathers to be parents, you can only force unrelated women to.

its depressing isnt it, and the attitudes wont change all the while even women are giving other women a hard time over it, let alone men feeling entitled to.

I think you committed to the children when you committed to their father.

If course they will be devastated and rejected if you make no provision to see them on a regular basis.

And I say this as a childrens mental health profession and separated parent.

I agree with the ‘fun aunt’ type suggestions here.

@JudgeJerry you have no legal obligations towards your DSC. I’m not even sure how any formal arrangement could work without the involvement of social services etc. It’s not like you are a professional child carer with DBS. And as PPs have pointed out, with no rights, any arrangement could be pulled at a moment’s notice, causing all sorts of emotional issues for all three children.

I think PPs telling you how you must keep caring for these children are deluded. The whole situation is legally fraught. You have zero rights to see these kids on an ongoing basis. When your STBXH remarries (as he inevitably will) he will likely decide to cut all contact in the future, and you will have to suck it up and deal with the emotional fallout for your child.

You also - despite PPs assertions - have no moral obligation towards your DSC. You didn’t ask to be made their SM, you have provided care, instead of handing them across to the authorities. You have no obligation to continue this.

However, your DSC are your own child’s siblings and on that basis alone an ongoing relationship where you can nudge the dynamics is important. It is vital your child has a happy home life in both of their new homes - you need your DSC to behave kindly and generously towards your own child when you are not there. I suggest keeping contact that allows a ‘trusted and fun aunt’ relationship with your DSC will give you some influence over their behaviours.

I think it would be worth agreeing to an initial trial of regular informal contact. i.e. no legal obligation on your part, just an informal arrangement on a regular basis. I think the suggestion of having them for tea once a week/fortnight during term-time is perfect. Maybe the occasional ad hoc day out as well.

Your STBXH has behaved abominably throughout your marriage. His track record shows he will take the piss if you let him. No wonder you are concerned about boundaries. Unfortunately you will always have a relationship with him through your shared child. I hope you can find a way through.

The thing is, I can see with a man like this, the OP will end up having the kids eg Wednesday for tea and it will end up involving her collecting them from school and when he doesn’t collect them from her house at 7.30 because he is SO busy at work, it’ll end up with him expecting the kids to sleep over!

I would make it clear to him that if he pushes the boundaries of the arrangement at all, it stops.

For practical advice, how about stbx asks his nanny to bring his kids round to yours once a week - as a set arrangement. Then you won't be doing any of the running around after them, the nanny will be picking them up from school and bringing them and liaising by phone with you. You could say that it will always be a takeaway dinner, and then you won't be cooking and washing up for them. You could increase the number of visits during holiday times to full days a week which the nanny manages.

I know people are suggesting this as if it's no bother, but I think once a week is a pretty large commitment personally. I wouldn't want to agree to having someone's kids over any more than once a fortnight or month.

OP given everything you have said about your ex do you not think that he will quickly move onto another relationship and expect the new woman to take over where you left off ?
I saw this happen with a friend whose husband was awarded FT custody of 3 DC when their mother moved abroad with her new DH . He fully expected my friend to do all parenting. Eventually she left and went through the same agonies as you . He very quickly remarried and the new wife took over .
My friend has maintained flexible contact with the DC who are now adults .

I'm wondering whether you could look at this from a basis of whose needs you're going to prioritise (because the truth is, you have to, unpalatable as that is).

Firstly, your own - you need to choose a plan you can physically and mentally cope with alongside parenting your young child and working full time. I'm putting your needs first because of the whole "put your own oxygen mask on before you help others" as if you break you can't help anyone.

Secondly, the child you will have main custody of, who is also the youngest and your biological child. They will turn to you for emotional support through this divorce, instinctively, and it's going to be bumpy as you know. So you need to factor in needing a bit of extra energy to provide that nurture and support.

Thirdly, your step-children, as you have been their stable person who provides their physical care and nurture for 30-50% of their young lives. It's positive for all the half-siblings to keep that stable connection, and they too will need emotional support (although it's not wholly your responsibility to provide, but it's within your power to have a good influence here).

You're looking for a perfect balance and there isn't one, but if you aim for something that's well within your energy and time levels, you're much more likely to be able to do it sustainably. Options:

• They could come for brunch on your weekends with your youngest child, and you could drop them home afterwards?
• You could look for a hobby you could do with all three of the children, although the age range is a stretch, because that would provide its own structure. Judo? Orienteering? Geocaching? Volunteering on a nature reserve?
• You could have a family membership to a place all the kids like (country park etc) and make it that you all go together EOW.

In terms of ad hoc, if the children wanted it, I would keep showing up to support them at things that are important to them such as football games or scouts badge giving or whatever.

I'd also consider how much it means to know an important adult is thinking of you when you're apart - I might make it a routine to post them a postcard every Monday with something silly on it. It will take you ten minutes especially if you buy a big box of cards and stamps ahead of time, but it will be a way to stay connected that can feel more caring than a text (and I'm thinking the 9 yr old won't have a phone).

You cannot fix your ex-partner's parenting but you can build trust with these children that you are there for them - but only if that's something you're willing to commit to. It doesn't have to take over your life, and I think you would regret breaking that connection between half-siblings otherwise.

I would put the ball in his court and let him know he has the option to have your child for extra tea times to keep that bond together and that you'll have the SC the occasional weekend to give him a break, because look any full time parent does deserve a break

I haven't had a break in almost 5 years! Obviously I am a woman so it's fine.

@Falleybollolo

I think you committed to the children when you committed to their father.

If course they will be devastated and rejected if you make no provision to see them on a regular basis.

And I say this as a childrens mental health profession and separated parent.

She committed to the father, too. Commitments end, unless you are a parent.

OP, has any of this helped you at all, you have received a lot of advice and the majority of us are on your side?

I have read all the OPs responses, if not the entire thread. It seems to me OP is not interested in any one suggesting she do more than an adhoc dinner or dinner on alternate weeks.

Why should she?! THEY AREN'T HER KIDS! It's not different than a nanny no longer participating in her charges' once she's left the job. At least a nanny gets paid *

Personally I don’t think the relationship with the ex is what should be driving the decision. I get it, you don’t like him, you don’t want to help him and you feel used by him. But this isn’t about him it’s about the kids.

*Exactly - HIS kids. It's his time to step up, not have his ex wife paper over the cracks in his relationship with his children

You say you didn’t choose to take on the mother role but you did, you didn’t have to stay and do that for 4 years.

She didn't take it on she was forced into it. No doubt on a promise that when they moved in he'd be the main carer

*Also they are your child’s siblings. So, ignoring what you perceive as your ex taking advantage of you, what is best for the 3 children involved?

*Probably that their dad steps up and takes better care of them and forges link between them and their sibling

Also the eldest is 12 - has anyone actually asked them what they think?

Controversial view but children don't always have to get a say in what happens to them post-divorce. Adults are allowed to make decisions on their behalf

It must be very hard to work out what's best, particularly if he is putting pressure on you and you are on the one hand wanting - quite rightly - a clean break and on the other hand to be fair to the step children.
Might it help to think longer term? I mean at the moment there must be so many practical things to do - are you moving out, or is he, or both of you. Do you need to find somewhere to rent or buy. What maintenance will he pay for your child - such a lot to think about
But - what will be best for your stepchildren in the long term is something that is sustainable, which means you have to be happy to do it and it can't be more than you realistically have time for.
Long term, being a kind of caring auntie figure, arranging (when it suits you) a picnic or day out in the school holidays, and tea at yours on a sunday afternoon (when it suits you) could be something to aim for
I think better to have a clean break, tell him that it isn't fair and right that you have childcare responsibilities for your stepchildren, that he needs to sort that out (either by paying for childcare or changing his working arrangements) And that once you have got into a new routine with your dc you will be happy to invite your step children to visit.
If the children are missing their sibling, he can facilitate their contact.
Better to be firm now or he will be constantly pushing for more of the responsibility to pass to you, you will become more resentful and the children won't benefit. He may well be thinking that he only has to keep you on the hook for a few more years and they will be old enough to not need supervision
It is very likely he will find a new mug to be his partner and provide free child care. If you have maintained a friendly relationship with the step children they can still visit you, they will soon be old enough to organise this themselves

In your position, my reply would be to offer to adopt the children, if I was expected to parent them. I don't think anyone would be happy with that.

It is perfectly fair to offer to have them over for, say, lunch, every month or so. Or invite them to a day out with your DC, but the ages are too different.

He needs a reality check on parenting. And, I think it would benefit the children, too, if he was forced to spend time with them.
Unless he finds another young woman to take over from him.