To think Joe Biden is an even worse president than Trump?

[Aspiringmatriarch]

I realise Trump was appalling in many ways so this isn't a pro-Trump post really, and I know he was the one who put things in motion for the withdrawal from Afghanistan. But to pull out in such a sudden and shambolic way will without doubt be the direct cause of many deaths and other atrocities in Afghanistan, including the deaths of those who helped the US and other forces. I think it's utterly unforgivable. Can't think of anything Trump did with quite such immediate and devastating consequences. AIBU?

How many more troops and how long. Because it’s easy to say it’s terrible. Harder to talk about what to do.

We didn't need more troops though. Afghanistan has been (relatively) stable until this catastrophic withdrawal. The US should have stayed put for as long as it took.

When Afghanistan inevitably becomes a breeding ground for terrorists we'll have to go back in and start from square one anyway, which will lead to far more lives being lost than if we hadn't withdrawn in the first place.

MopaniTree
'I read so much criticism of Trump but when it comes down to it, what did he actually do that was materially so awful?'

Let's see:

being a 'birther'
'grab them by the pussy!'
calling African countries 'shithole countries'
'very fine people on both sides' in Charlottesville to white supremacists
claiming that the hurricane in Puerto Rico wasn't a real catastrophe
believing he is 'the least racist'
calling Mexicans rapists
telling Proud Boys ' stand down and stand by'
connection to Russia and other authoritarian regimes
paying hush money for his affaires
being accused of assaulting women
putting conservative judges on as many benches a possible, even Kavanaugh
endorsing violence against the media
sabotage of Obmacare
low tax rate for the big companies
January 6th insurrection
withdrawal from Paris Climate agreement
total failure in containing COVID
claims election fraud, where there is none
blackmailing representatives to change the election results
considering martial law
mocking disabled reporter
insulting the military calling dead soldiers 'losers' and 'suckers'
child separation (in cages)
and lies over lies over lies (alternative facts)

I could go on and on and on....

Awful enough?

[quote jasjas1973]@MarshaBradyo i ve tried to ans your question.[/quote]
You actually answered with a question re other countries.

I’d like to know - how many decades more - how many troops back in right now? Would you do the 12000 or more?

People seem to find it hard to be the one to say it. Because the reality is families losing people and it’s easy to say go. Although couching it in references to Cyprus makes it sound less the reality of what people face.

@BrozTito

Ohhhh is this a 'i dont like trans people either so im up for fascistic populist far right wannabe dictators' thing? Can usually tell when the simpletons start with the endless mentions of 'woke'

think i saw trans people mentioned once here....not in a negative way

why the need to be so rude?

The Curious Case of Suez 1956: The British and French drew opposite conclusions from the same experience:

The British determined to climb up America's arse and stay there where it would always be safe.

The French decided that you could never trust the Yanks, they would always sell you out in a breath if it suited them.

Who looks right now?

We've been interfering in the Middle East since medieval times.

To no avail.

Americans are tired and they want out. Where’s everyone else? Where’s China or France or Germany or the UK? Where are the surrounding Arab countries? Nowhere. Instead of tarring and feathering Biden let’s look at holding some of the other world leaders accountable.

This is America's war. They tried and got many western countries in their drive to support to a war many European countries didnt believe in. I dont blame Biden but I fully blame America for yet again making a mess thinking of their gain in foreign policy and allowing making making a bigger mess for the countries who support them.

As an European have had a gutful of foreign American policies. The sooner we get an European force, the better

The US should have stayed put for as long as it took.

But I wouldn't want my loved ones to stay there so how can I demand it of others?

gardening because im sick of short sighted sympathising for utter scumbags on here because they show an anti trans stance?

so how on earth could the UK have stayed on their own without the US ?

Surely we had no choice .

And this morning an ex army officer said that the USA had underestimated the speed the Taliban had taken hold - not because of fire power or man power but because they used bribery /corruption and propaganda to take hold .

I just hope they get time to process getting out the correct people that will otherwise be in immediate danger because they helped the allied forces .

ClaireFraser2018:

You forgot trying to buy Greenland and then insulting the Queen of Denmark when it turned out to be not for sale.

@MarshaBradyo

I would say that once you start something, you see it through to at least a negotiated power share (defeat of Taliban not possible)

I do ask because I would like an answer in years and numbers and so far everyone diverts. Even the critical ambassador this morning.

How many more troops and how long. Because it’s easy to say it’s terrible. Harder to talk about what to do.

Another interesting speaker (maybe Wallace) talked about using Peace dividends very quickly. Ie withdrawing 1000s each month. Used up quickly we had little leverage for negotiation.

It’s very difficult. I’ve not been thinking about this much until now, but there is no easy way to leave. Stay or go - it will be a catastrophe. But actually could have been worse. If promise to withdraw had not been met, what would that have been like?

Why was what we were doing a "catastrophe" - the Afghans were doing the fighting, troop numbers very low, Afghan evolving......

You can't put numbers on it but as i said earlier... Korea and Cyprus.

*Honestly from the American POV the lefties are more fascist, what with their vaccine and mask mandates and love of lockdowns.

They say they do it for our own safety ... fascists always say that*

@UsedUpUsername

There is no vaccine mandate, and the UK has been in lockdown infinitely more times than we have.

Please, continue.

This is a prime example of damage the Trump presidency did though - he convinced so many millions of unintelligent people that they were 'sticking it to them liberals' and keeping their 'FREEDUM' by not wearing a mask or getting the vaccine - which by the way is still voluntary.

Republicans, on the other hand, are hypocrites who suddenly believe 'My Body My Choice' when they don't want a vaccine but who are COMPLETELY fine with the government mandating a woman carries a pregnancy to term and undergoes invasive vaginally exams and pain.

Annnnnnnnd ill say it again. The french had and has troops in Afghanistan aswell. Do people know what nato is?

As an European have had a gutful of foreign American policies. The sooner we get an European force, the better

@Alondra For Prime Minister!

You can't put numbers on it

If you want to stay at least put some figures against what you mean. More troops in or not?

Trump was awful but is evidence that sometimes it's "better the devil you know." Biden's credentials are basically that he isn't Trump, which isn't enough.

On Afghanistan Trump decided to pull out, but Biden has been the one to catastrophically cock-up the process. Biden is the one who will have blood on his hands. Moreover his decision to make the 20th anniversary of 9/11 the final withdrawal date is inexplicable and offensive.

@jasjas1973

As an European have had a gutful of foreign American policies. The sooner we get an European force, the better

@Alondra For Prime Minister!

So you’d like Europe to form and stay?

@Jaysmith71

ClaireFraser2018:

You forgot trying to buy Greenland and then insulting the Queen of Denmark when it turned out to be not for sale.

That was a classic. But it was our PM he insulted when she called the idea "absurd."

@Unsure33

so how on earth could the UK have stayed on their own without the US ?

Surely we had no choice .

And this morning an ex army officer said that the USA had underestimated the speed the Taliban had taken hold - not because of fire power or man power but because they used bribery /corruption and propaganda to take hold .

I just hope they get time to process getting out the correct people that will otherwise be in immediate danger because they helped the allied forces .

I agree everyone left after US

It’s delusional to think U.K. could stay alone. Some will claim they should have.

@BrozTito

Annnnnnnnd ill say it again. The french had and has troops in Afghanistan aswell. Do people know what nato is?

86 dead and long gone.

Compared to 454 British dead, some of whom because the Germans and assorted other NATO forces weren't allowed out at night because it was dangerous.

@BrozTito

Annnnnnnnd ill say it again. The french had and has troops in Afghanistan aswell. Do people know what nato is?

This. Danish troops have fought and died there, too.

@MoiraRose4

But what’s the alternative? How many years have troops been present and look how quickly it has crumbled. Do they stay there forever?

I agree - I haven't followed it particularly closely before now but wasn't there a peace agreement in exchange for the US withdrawing troops that the Taliban now haven't adhered to?

Biden comes across as a bumbling, incompetent and lacks any statesmanship or gravitas.

The President of America is dubbed the Leader of the Free World, America is held up a a beacon of the West, is deemed the most powerful Nation on Earth and the best they can offer as President is a choice between Trump and Biden, appalling and shocking in equal measure, it's a very unfunny joke that has ironically made America a laughing stock worldwide.

@Warmduscher

70% of the American public agreed with withdrawing troops.

No they didn’t stop watching the tv programming. And how it was done it is just appalling