To think Joe Biden is an even worse president than Trump?

[Aspiringmatriarch]

I realise Trump was appalling in many ways so this isn't a pro-Trump post really, and I know he was the one who put things in motion for the withdrawal from Afghanistan. But to pull out in such a sudden and shambolic way will without doubt be the direct cause of many deaths and other atrocities in Afghanistan, including the deaths of those who helped the US and other forces. I think it's utterly unforgivable. Can't think of anything Trump did with quite such immediate and devastating consequences. AIBU?

Ah still angry from before Steak?

Can’t argue using reason so resort to insults.

Where are your fucks for people who fight on your behalf? Nowhere.

@manhattenrain

From the POTUS Instagram.

What a wanker!

@MarshaBradyo

Ah still angry from before Steak?

Can’t argue using reason so resort to insults.

Where are your fucks for people who fight on your behalf? Nowhere.

You don't give two fucks though marsha its clear you don't as you keep bleeting on about 'it would have happened any way' ...

People who joined the army do so to get involved in war - if they don't want to go to war - don't join the army. All the interviews I've seen - live- with Afghan vets are shocked and appalled at what has happened.

Thank fuck the U.K are planning to get as many Afgan women and kids out they can.

Steak Well how would you suggest it wouldn’t happen when the US left?

Explain what you’d implement to stop people trying to flee.

You might have a point if you can make it rather than yelling at people with insults

And no I disagree with the sign up you have to do it - if both Presidents wanted to withdraw and 70% of US don’t want to be there - does what they want count?

And yeah - I am angry. The UK and US have spent two decades westernising that generation. Showing them that girls can go to school, become teachers, doctors, have bank accounts, be gay, drive after it was taken away from them in the 80s.

The handmaids tale isn't fiction you know - this is real life happening in Afghanistan.

@MarshaBradyo

Steak Well how would you suggest it wouldn’t happen when the US left?

Explain what you’d implement to stop people trying to flee.

You might have a point if you can make it rather than yelling at people with insults

And no I disagree with the sign up you have to do it - if both Presidents wanted to withdraw and 70% of US don’t want to be there - does what they want count?

You might have a point to make if you stop being so patronising to people marsha - on second thoughts - you don't.

Stop who trying to flee? you mean the Afghan army who wasn't fed, paid and had all their resources taken from them, basically left stranded? Your still stuck on that?

I’m not being patronising I’m asking a direct question since you are sure I am wrong - I want to know how you’d have stopped the swift takeover and the people flooding the airport or perimeter trying to flee?

It IS wrong to leave them in that chaos.

The US should have never left. Trump should have never made the deal and Biden should never have pulled them out with no notice. This isn't the first time the Uk and US have had to spend decades making a country stable.

No you can’t

I meant about open conflict,

Unfortunately Biden has clearly shown that his judgement on the Afghanistan situation is completely and utterly wrong. So if he says there would be open conflict, how can we trust that he knows what he’s talking about? As I’ve said repeatedly, the region has been relatively stable for a number of years now thanks to the efforts of US troops. If they had stayed on the ground and not withdrawn then why would that have changed?

As for how long should the troops have stayed, I would say as long as it takes to ensure the Taliban were not able to sweep to power again. That could be decades.

@Shanghaisprize

The leftish media in general was crazy about making Trump out to be a horror

They never really had to. He showed people exactly who he was by his appalling actions, behaviour and manner.

Yes, people say this, but we aren't talking about his personality are we - we're talking about his effectiveness as a president, what the outcomes of his presidency were.

If you make a list, without all the emotive blather the press added in, either pro or anti Trump, of the things that he did in his presidency, good and bad, and you make a similar list for Obama, or Clinton, what you find is that they aren't radically different. Many of the bad things he did were done also by others, many of the trends he carried on with weren't ones he started. And he had some good outcomes as well including a few that were unexpected.

It's kind of disturbing that looking at actual outcomes like this, apart from media hype, is seen as being an apologist. Frankly a lot of not so much about Trump being good as about the fact that other presidents were not that great either.

Biden actually looks to be worse in some ways than many, in terms of actual effectiveness. Though it's early days of course.

And he had some good outcomes as well including a few that were unexpected.

@SmokedDuck like what, out of interest?

The writing has been on the wall for something like this since the US first went into Afghanistan. An action like that, to work, is almost always going to be a two generation occupation. And the American people were never going to be happy with that long term.

Americans on the right and left have been pressuring the government to get out of there for years, and several presidents said they were going to make efforts to move in that direction. And everyone knew that it was highly likely to go to Hell when it happened. Many military commentators said right from the beginning that trying to go into Afghanistan would never work out, it never has worked out, for anyone.

@lllllllllll

And he had some good outcomes as well including a few that were unexpected.

@SmokedDuck like what, out of interest?

There were a fair number of domestic bills, like access for veterans to mental health care, that he was involved with or signed off on. Increased parental leave. Reforms around helping former inmates reintegrate successfully. Sentencing laws that created inequalities for black Americans (which I think may have been a Clinton initiative, though I may be misremembering that.) There were significant reforms to prosecuting financial crime.

He has some interesting results with regard to diplomacy. I've read some interesting commentary on this from diplomats that suggest it wasn't actually as crazy as a lot of people thought at the time. Along with that, his tendency to want to withdraw from military commitments outside the US isn't really a Trump thing, it's been largely followed by Biden because that seems to be the new consensus for the direction of the military.

One of the things I was very surprised to discover, not originally from the media but from talking to Mexicans living in Mexico, was that despite the awfulness of some of his approached to dealing with illegal border crossing, and his rhetoric about Mexicans, in general many Mexicans actually supported his cracking down in this area, as it also causes real problems for them.

Overall I came to the conclusion fairly late in his presidency that it was very difficult to get any clear idea of what went well or didn't go well from reading the mainstream media. It was all completely bloated by rhetoric.

The US should have never left.
So, basically make Afghanistan a US state?

Trump should have never made the deal and Biden should never have pulled them out with no notice.

There was notice (maybe not for you, but that's not really Biden's fault, is it?).

This isn't the first time the Uk and US have had to spend decades making a country stable.

Out of curiosity, when was the last time they did it and how stable did it get?

If Trump were presiding over this mess he'd be being absolutely slaughtered for it. But as it's Biden there is largely an embarrassed radio silence from the people usually most vocal about this sort of thing.

It's a fucking shit show of the most horrific magnitude.

It's a fucking shit show of the most horrific magnitude.

Interesting. Why is it?
It was fast. Lots of people tried to flee.
However, the takeover by the Taliban was largely peaceful. And it was inevitable.

I get the feeling that if the Taliban would have held up for another couple of weeks and regained the country over the next 6 months, that this thread would never exist.
And, yet, the Taliban would still end up controlling Afghanistan.

Lweji Because the speed with which the Taliban re-took control seems to have been a complete surprise to everyone on the ground. Yes it's been largely peaceful so far, but you can tell by the reponses of people panicking and fleeing that it is not welcomed and no-ne really expects it to stay peaceful.

Where was the intelligence? Why were they caught so unawares? The so called 'army' and 'police force' that we trained clearly weren't ready to hold up by themselves. If it was 'inevitable' that the Taliban would take back control then surely there was still work to be done before the withdrawal. Yes I suppose you are right that had they ended up back in control in six months we'd have given a world-weary sigh of resignation to it, but at least we'd have had more time to get the relevant people most in need of protection out. It would have been preferable to this utter shambles and panic stations.

@YouJustFoldItIn

If Trump were presiding over this mess he'd be being absolutely slaughtered for it. But as it's Biden there is largely an embarrassed radio silence from the people usually most vocal about this sort of thing.

It's a fucking shit show of the most horrific magnitude.

I must be seeing different news outlets because from what I've read Biden is getting plenty of criticism for what has happened even in the so-called left-leaning media.

I think everyone I have spoken to about this agrees that the situation is awful and everyone is very concerned about the people, especially women and children, of Afghanistan. I think the US has horribly misjudged how quickly things would fall and how bad it would be.

I just don't understand how Trump supporters are using this to point out how much better Trump was and how much better he handled things. He was an awful president who succeeding in dividing the country. I don't think Biden is doing great, but I don't see how any of this means that Trump was somehow better.

I just don't understand how Trump supporters are using this to point out how much better Trump was and how much better he handled things. He was an awful president who succeeding in dividing the country. I don't think Biden is doing great, but I don't see how any of this means that Trump was somehow better.

I'm no Trump supporter and I am not saying he'd do better. But I think when the US election was happening, for many people it really didn't matter how many red flags there were about Biden, they were completely ignored just to get a Democrat in office and get Trump out. For some people anyone was better. And that anyone is a well intentioned but vaguely senile old man with some odd priorities who is mostly asleep (probably quite literally, I suspect) on the job.

If it was 'inevitable' that the Taliban would take back control then surely there was still work to be done before the withdrawal.

That's why the US didn't leave for 20 years. There was always work to be done.

The speed was massively underestimated, but the US wouldn't have taken the most vulnerable, if they didn't before. Let's be realistic.

America are not the international police

Actually they are. They gave themselves that position years ago when they funded the Mujahideen. The US govt are simply one of the 2 chess players using the Middle East as pawns.

The Cold War never ended, just morphed into something else, like an ongoing shit show franchise.

You go in and destabilise a region for political and resource gain, you fucking stay there and fix the mess you created.

God I pray that many Afghanis can flee and come here and go the US, let them line the nation and see who shouts "PESKY IMMIGRANTS!" and "F THE EU!"

you fucking stay there and fix the mess you created.

You think the mess in Afghanistan was created by the US?

Yes, it was perpetrated by the US, all to just oppose the Soviets.

Afghanistan you see today is a far cry from what it was in the 60's

@piddocktrumperiness

America are not the international police

Actually they are. They gave themselves that position years ago when they funded the Mujahideen. The US govt are simply one of the 2 chess players using the Middle East as pawns.

The Cold War never ended, just morphed into something else, like an ongoing shit show franchise.

You go in and destabilise a region for political and resource gain, you fucking stay there and fix the mess you created.

God I pray that many Afghanis can flee and come here and go the US, let them line the nation and see who shouts "PESKY IMMIGRANTS!" and "F THE EU!"

Here here!

I'm waiting for the MN threads complaining about the washed up bodies and the lines of refugees coming in.