To think Joe Biden is an even worse president than Trump?

[Aspiringmatriarch]

I realise Trump was appalling in many ways so this isn't a pro-Trump post really, and I know he was the one who put things in motion for the withdrawal from Afghanistan. But to pull out in such a sudden and shambolic way will without doubt be the direct cause of many deaths and other atrocities in Afghanistan, including the deaths of those who helped the US and other forces. I think it's utterly unforgivable. Can't think of anything Trump did with quite such immediate and devastating consequences. AIBU?

It's officially the most corrupt country in the world

Well that's something else I've learned today; I always thought the top spot went to Haiti

Disturbing, though, that even this is said to be everyone else's fault - you honestly have to wonder if there's anything people expect the Afghans to accept responsible for

Responsibility of course ... duuuhhh!!!

[quote Steakandcheeseplease]**@Thatsjustwhatithink* the presentation is* important because the POCUS is saying them. He looked like someones elderly dad half pissed speaking at his daughters wedding before going up to bed for a lie down.

He was going on about passing this decision on to another president - the leave date was September...does he know something we don't know.

It was catastrophic to leave the way they did.[/quote]
He said he wouldn't pass another shit show on to the next president and would follow through with his promise to the electorate to leave Afghanistan.

I could care less how slick he sounds, I care that people keep their word.

The presence of the the US and UK armies held the Taliban back

I have said in pp that I do see this as the other factor. A critical view from a US Ambassador this morning - we were there as a kind of insurance against future extremism. Where I don’t agree is that there was a winning or solution, or that we had to ‘stay until it was finished’. There wasn’t a point where it would be finished. The Taliban can wait.

If it’s a presence to try to limit extremist attacks then no one is willing to say we’ll stay indefinitely and this is how many troops, and I have huge sympathy for anyone who feels it’s easy for others to offer this up so easily when it benefits them but no downside.

I’m not unaware of why some think it was in the US interests to stay. I still think how many people are we willing to sacrifice is a powerful and fair question.

I also think people who have been there know a lot more than I do, and I welcome that insight, although I have been listening to various viewpoints over last couple of days I’m fine to say ok someone who has been what do you think

I'm not sure if his address to the taliban was strong enough?
A few sentences about the current situation sandwiched in...

And not much about the current execution of the exit.

His rage with the afghan president was bubbling over and rightly so, I bet he feels incredibly let down.
He mentioned comtinegency plans but didn't go any further into what they were doing /are?

It's going to take further days to get enough troops there to get people out and do they even have food or water at the airport? For how long?

What a disaster.

He said, the afghans did not want them to process people to get out because it would be a crisis of confidence and yet they have already got 2000 out. So why not just escalate that a little??
The sheer volume they have

Trump has left a horrendous disaster for Biden. There are no winners, only losers in Afghanistan.
Not a great speech but better than being shouted at by Trump.

He litterally just owned it said how he has always been for removal, was against Obamas surge, had the oppourtinity to ignore Trumps peace deal, basically said he is not prepared to fight for a country that their own troops will not stand up for and you come away with still an 'Orange Man Bad' take?

Did you really watch the speach or are you waiting for the correct response for you to have to appear on twitter or something?

To think this site used to have some intelligent nuance around political topics is a long lost memory.

Trump was crazy Biden is senile.

They have not had a decent president since Clinton.

I suspect that Biden is a temporary president and the intention is for the Vice President to take over. I think this has been the plan all along. I never liked

Posted too soon..
I never liked Trump but Biden doesn’t seem well in himself. And the order to withdraw troops has had disasterous consequences and led (and will lead) to the deaths of many. It will have terrible consequences for the quality of life of innocent Afghan civilians, women, girls and young boys in particular. It’s utterly tragic and I feel so sorry for them 😥

@Parker231

Trump has left a horrendous disaster for Biden. There are no winners, only losers in Afghanistan. Not a great speech but better than being shouted at by Trump.

I agree that Trump set this deal up, which was a stab in the back for Afghanistan but Biden has reversed many things since coming in to power.

Trump cannot be blamed for how the past couple of days have played out.

@Justanotherlurker

Trump has left a horrendous disaster for Biden. There are no winners, only losers in Afghanistan. Not a great speech but better than being shouted at by Trump.

He litterally just owned it said how he has always been for removal, was against Obamas surge, had the oppourtinity to ignore Trumps peace deal, basically said he is not prepared to fight for a country that their own troops will not stand up for and you come away with still an 'Orange Man Bad' take?

Did you really watch the speach or are you waiting for the correct response for you to have to appear on twitter or something?

To think this site used to have some intelligent nuance around political topics is a long lost memory.

His speech was totally unrepentant or showing empathy for the chaos that is now ensuing in Kabul because the unplanned quick retreat that no fucker else was a party too.

Utter chaos. No one had chance to prepare.

This is a monumental strategic fuck up.They have pulled them out in the peak of fighting season instead of the quieter months (poppy harvesting) All those lives lost for absolutely nothing.

Maybe you should go on the news channels there are lots of veterans on them now showing their dismay at what they have done - y'know put your side across..

@Thatsjustwhatithink

Bidens speech right now is very good and very true. Why should we fight a war if the Afghan army aren't prepared to?

To those who say "we should stay"....how long would you stay?

What are your markers for staying? What does success look like? How many of your own soldiers are you prepared to sacrifice? Would you sacrifice yourself or your child? Your partner? How do convince large swathes of the Afghan population to support the government? How do you stop corruption?

In short, answe the questions that Biden is asking of the afghans in his speech right now

I don't think people think troops should have stayed, rather the way it has been done has been utterly shambolic. I don't think there is any future for US being "the leaders of the free world", that era is over.

China's go next

@Namechangetimeagain

Excellent speech from a President who leads and makes the tough decisions for his country and he admits when he's miscalculated.

It's not an easy gig.

Wow

Its the way its been done.

The fuck up was invading the country in the first place, even if it was broadly speaking a well intentioned action by the US - for once. (let's ignore their culpability for sewing the seeds of the Taliban for now). Everything following that is just building on a mistake. There was no right for wrong.

@Steakandcheeseplease

Apart from the fact that we've been preparing for this since Biden gave his timeline? You know when he announced on TV that everyone would be out before the 20th anniversary of 9/11?? Not exactly a secret.

It came quicker than people thought, but because everyone had planned on the Afghan army fighting just a little bit. Not the total capitulation without even a skirmish.

Please don't talk about the 'poppy season' in Kabul. They don't grow poppies there. The taliban don't harvest poppies, they simply pay the farmers to grow them. The farmers happily do because there's way more profit in it. But Taliban fighters do not farm or harvest. They simply pay. And as they aren't fighting in any if the poppy districts so it doesn't matter. The poppy is grown in southern Afghanistan, not cold Kabul.

Perhaps do some research on Afghanistan before posting??

I have said in pp that I do see this as the other factor. A critical view from a US Ambassador this morning - we were there as a kind of insurance against future extremism. Where I don’t agree is that there was a winning or solution, or that we had to ‘stay until it was finished’. There wasn’t a point where it would be finished. The Taliban can wait.

I agree, there were vested interests keeping the Taliban funded. There were not going to go away.

Meh. The US is best understood as an oligarchy. Democratic in theory but in practice Obama, Trump, Biden are just pawns for big capital.

[quote Thatsjustwhatithink]@Steakandcheeseplease

Apart from the fact that we've been preparing for this since Biden gave his timeline? You know when he announced on TV that everyone would be out before the 20th anniversary of 9/11?? Not exactly a secret.

It came quicker than people thought, but because everyone had planned on the Afghan army fighting just a little bit. Not the total capitulation without even a skirmish.

Please don't talk about the 'poppy season' in Kabul. They don't grow poppies there. The taliban don't harvest poppies, they simply pay the farmers to grow them. The farmers happily do because there's way more profit in it. But Taliban fighters do not farm or harvest. They simply pay. And as they aren't fighting in any if the poppy districts so it doesn't matter. The poppy is grown in southern Afghanistan, not cold Kabul.

Perhaps do some research on Afghanistan before posting??[/quote]
point to me where I said 'the poppy season in Kabul' I didnt - you just made that up. So the rest of your 'education' was pointless.

The people that have been left there have been completely been thrown under the bus.

What are the people who are stuck there now going to do? Hide or run away? The civilians were climbing on fucking plans to try and escape.

The Afghans wouldn't fight against the Taliban... The whole army and security forces folded with barely a shot being fired. If Afghans wouldn't fight then it's hardly the job of the Americans.

This day had to come at some point... It's just that Biden was the President that actually did what was inevitable.

I just don’t understand how the intelligence agencies got it so wrong - both the British and US knew that Kabul would fall but how did they have no idea that it would go so quickly?

Obama was feted in some quarters as the second coming of Ghandi and won the peace prize. This is the guy who killed hundreds of children with drones. It's all a mirage.

I just don’t understand how the intelligence agencies got it so wrong - both the British and US knew that Kabul would fall but how did they have no idea that it would go so quickly?

I think they assumed the army would fight more so based it on numbers, weapons etc.

if Afghans wouldn't fight then it's hardly the job of the Americans

Well America seemed to believe it wss their job when they armed the mujahideen and then two decades later invaded the country to the tune of 2 trillion.

but we can't go back in time so lm not sure how helpful that is?