To think Joe Biden is an even worse president than Trump?

[Aspiringmatriarch]

I realise Trump was appalling in many ways so this isn't a pro-Trump post really, and I know he was the one who put things in motion for the withdrawal from Afghanistan. But to pull out in such a sudden and shambolic way will without doubt be the direct cause of many deaths and other atrocities in Afghanistan, including the deaths of those who helped the US and other forces. I think it's utterly unforgivable. Can't think of anything Trump did with quite such immediate and devastating consequences. AIBU?

Watching Trump give a speech was totally surreal, he was such a headcase and I do not follow US politics enough to know what he did internally that was so bad, but internationally he was the least toxic president in a long time.

@Coyoacan did you actually mean to say “least”?

@Steakandcheeseplease

Safety of own people? What about all the fucking US and UK citizens that have been left there stranded?

Fuck off with your 'we can't occupy Afghanistan forever' - they were in a position of authority/responsibilty and they should have at least got every one out first or spoke to the UK gov about what they were about to do so we could at least prepare.

But you can fly yourself over there and sort it all out if you can do better or want to volunteer you life or limbs?

Well from the scenes from Kabul airport, people falling off planes as every one is in utter chaos and trying to escape before the actual bogey men come - I don't think think they are accepting incoming flights from the north west of the UK...

You seem to think you can do better. What would you have done? From your armchair in North England? With no fucking idea what the country is like? Have you ever been there? Met the people? Fought there?

There's actually not a huge amount of US and UK citizens stranded. And both countries put out official travel guidance months ago asking all UK and US citizens to immediately leave.

So no, we shouldn't be there forever. I'm glad we left. Thankfully I came back with my arms and legs. A lot of my friends haven't. If they came back at all. But please keep moralising from your position of comfort with no threat to your own life.

Better than Trump on a broad range of issues. Trump was malignant and divisive, for the US and the wider West. Our shared culture regressed under Trump.

Biden has f'd this up though good and proper, and it's all he will be remembered for.

Why don't you go?

@Thatsjustwhatithink do you actually believe that every Mumsnetter who thinks we shouldn’t have withdrawn from Afghanistan should be flown out to Kabul forthwith and sent into battle with the Taliban then?

@Thatsjustwhatithink your missing the point entirely, maybe your just in the 'let them rot camp'

The Taliban have never had this level of legitimacy or security. They have never taken over a country of this measure and forced one of the worlds super powers to surrender over night. They never had the backing of China and Russia in this way before and they never had the artillery. They are a fucking army now in their own lands.

They hate the West. Do you remember that day when they flew planes in to those big building in America, killed shit loads of people? Expect more but maybe you unable to think that far ahead..

So whilst they were there for a long time ( I actually have a relative who was in the Paras who spent time there) they were also there to stop them doing this very thing.

And going off SM Biden isn't very popular right now with his US citizens but hey he was on holiday whilst this crisis erupted so who is actually running the show?

@lllllllllll

Why don't you go?

@Thatsjustwhatithink do you actually believe that every Mumsnetter who thinks we shouldn’t have withdrawn from Afghanistan should be flown out to Kabul forthwith and sent into battle with the Taliban then?

No, just to have a good think about the reality of war when there are sod all consequences for you.

It's easy to volunteer someone's else life isn't it?

Blame George W Bush. They should never have been there in the first place.

I agree it's a mess but it's not Biden's fault. He's just continuing with the plan. It seems cruel. It must be a difficult call for him.

And no president in history has been as bad as trump. Under him America got close to civil war.

[quote Steakandcheeseplease]@Thatsjustwhatithink your missing the point entirely, maybe your just in the 'let them rot camp'

The Taliban have never had this level of legitimacy or security. They have never taken over a country of this measure and forced one of the worlds super powers to surrender over night. They never had the backing of China and Russia in this way before and they never had the artillery. They are a fucking army now in their own lands.

They hate the West. Do you remember that day when they flew planes in to those big building in America, killed shit loads of people? Expect more but maybe you unable to think that far ahead..

So whilst they were there for a long time ( I actually have a relative who was in the Paras who spent time there) they were also there to stop them doing this very thing.

And going off SM Biden isn't very popular right now with his US citizens but hey he was on holiday whilst this crisis erupted so who is actually running the show?[/quote]
I'm in the "fought them for multiple years camp in the Army" followed by the "continued to work in foreign policy in South Asia" camp.

So yes, I Remember 9/11. It changed the course of my life. It's the action that caused the war in Afghanistan that took the lives of many of my friends.

So impressed you have a relative who was I the army. Almost like you were actually there? Not.

@Steakandcheeseplease

But as you werent in the army, don't use the experience or "I know someone who was"

@Thatsjustwhatithink, they have thousands of people stranded.

And also, even though I'm not a General in the US army I can still see what a fucking shit show catastrophe this is. Do you really believe its all the foreign nationals faults they are now stuck in an area where they are likely to be held hostage or murdered? Is that really your thought process? Wow!

Why are you trying to condone what they have done? They fucked off with out telling anyone and left a massive gaping hole for the Taliban to roar across and get in. I just hope the Uk troops and all the foreign nationals get out before the blood baths start.

[quote Thatsjustwhatithink]@Steakandcheeseplease

But as you werent in the army, don't use the experience or "I know someone who was"[/quote]
I can defiantly have an opinion on it EVEN if I wasn't in the army!

Who ever ordered them to leave like that which out any structure in place or discussion is an imbecile.

And by the way, IF you were in the army - you put yourself there.

The US had been in Afghanistan 20 years. When, exactly, would have been enough?

Trump took over from Obama and created havoc. Biden is having to sort out the mess.

Thats I can understand why you feel as you do.

Whenever US and everyone left this would have happened

@orinocosfavoritecake

The US had been in Afghanistan 20 years. When, exactly, would have been enough?

Probably when they came to the time they were supposed to leave, when every one was prepared and there was a structure in place...

@FangsForTheMemory

Trump took over from Obama and created havoc. Biden is having to sort out the mess.

No fucker pulled the US army out of Afghanistan over night with no structure in place.

This is Bidens toes. No one else

@Steakandcheeseplease

I don't think continually occupying a country is a solution. We did not "fuck off without telling anyone". We have a responsibility, first and foremost, to our own citizens. If we send our people overseas we do risk assessments to make sure we have decent chance of keeping our people alive. If our people are injured we have to have a way of getting those casualties to hospital. When the Taliban took Kabul that all ended. Im not prepared to put Brits in harms way without a way of protecting them or at least trying to save their lives if they get shot or blown up.

I used to be a soldier so those lives matter to me. Yes, I want the Afghans to live long and happy lives but I'm not responsible for changing their culture or making their army having the will to fight.

When you say 'foreign nationals' you mean people who may have dual nationality or a possible right to stay in the UK. The UK ambassador is still there, signing those applications. There aren't many fucking Brits who have popped to Afghanistan for a holiday. The Foreign Office has, for fucking decades, advised against travel there.

We have just sent in 16 Air Assist brigade to get out the (very small) number of British citizens. Read the BBC or the guardian who will explain it in detail for you.

Lastly, the Afghan army didn't fight. You cannot ever order someone to gain the will to fight. They either have it they don't. But I'm not prepared to risk anymore British lives for a country that is so corrupt and criminal.

If you've never been involved in a war, don't be so keen to sen others.

*air assault brigade

The US army had spent 20 years supposedly, building the structure that would allow them to leave without the Taliban coming back, hoping that they’d get to ‘the time they were supposed to leave’.

Obama wanted to leave Afghanistan, and was persuaded to stay on by the generals who said that with more time and more soldiers they could fix it.

And now here we are.

@MarshaBradyo

Thats I can understand why you feel as you do.

Whenever US and everyone left this would have happened

Thanks for saying that.

It's incredibly frustrating to read comments from all the armchair generals who never been in so much as a pub fight, let alone a war, suddenly become experts in military strategy and foreign policy. Especially when they've never been to Afghanistan, Pakistan or have any understanding of the tribal dynamics that drive the region.

What @Thatsjustwhatithink said, but if Afghanistan is corrupt and criminal I suspect it’s less to do with their culture and more to do with the face that people keep on invading them, and occupying armies, however well-intentioned, however heroic, don’t make for a great long-term plan.

@orinocosfavoritecake

What *@Thatsjustwhatithink* said, but if Afghanistan is corrupt and criminal I suspect it’s less to do with their culture and more to do with the face that people keep on invading them, and occupying armies, however well-intentioned, however heroic, don’t make for a great long-term plan.

It's officially the most corrupt country in the world. Culturally, you have to spend time in Afghanistan to understand how fundamentally different they view things to us regarding the idea of corruption...

Trump took over from Obama and created havoc. Biden is having to sort out the mess.

You clearly know very little about the situation if you think Biden is having to sort out Trumps mess in Afghanistan.

It's a humanitarian crisis. Biden is President, the buck stops with him, But the circumstances were a poisoned chalice.
Trump was handed a poisoned chalice.
Obama was handed a poisoned chalice.
While they were president, they were ultimately responsible, and all 3 presidents ran a campaign of leaving Afganhistan, trying to frame it as you have shows how very little you actually know about the situation and American politics.

Everyone just ignored that fact he's utter shite becuase of their hated of Trump. Hobson's choice there though really.