Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think Joe Biden is an even worse president than Trump?

770 replies

Aspiringmatriarch · 16/08/2021 13:45

I realise Trump was appalling in many ways so this isn't a pro-Trump post really, and I know he was the one who put things in motion for the withdrawal from Afghanistan. But to pull out in such a sudden and shambolic way will without doubt be the direct cause of many deaths and other atrocities in Afghanistan, including the deaths of those who helped the US and other forces. I think it's utterly unforgivable. Can't think of anything Trump did with quite such immediate and devastating consequences. AIBU?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
Dissimilitude · 16/08/2021 16:30

"Trump was a million times worse. Trump had no understanding of foreign policy or to manage international leaders"

Trump was a shit show from start to finish. But I would venture that nothing Trump did is as long-term-damaging to US interests than what the world is watching on its televisions right now.

Doodlebug71 · 16/08/2021 16:31

@gardeninggirl68 i'm glad the troops are withdrawing,we can't solve the problems out there, nobody has never got close to it [sic]

Just pull out and leave civilians to deal with the Taliban? Who have already started going around executing the poor sods on their watch list?

Anyone who signs up to the armed forces knows exactly what they're signing up for. The civilians in those situations don't sign up for that.
Those poor civilians out in Afghanistan don't stand a chance.

Applesonthelawn · 16/08/2021 16:31

I agree. It beggars belief that the choice put to the American people was Biden or Trump.

Ohsugarhoneyicetea · 16/08/2021 16:31

I agree, Biden has decimated women's rights in the USA and is now facilitating the murder of all those poor Afghani people who trusted the USA. Making everyone else in the world less safe in the process. Seems its still the wild west and the the biggest crook wins.

MoonlightWanderer · 16/08/2021 16:32

@Dissimilitude

"Trump was a million times worse. Trump had no understanding of foreign policy or to manage international leaders"

Trump was a shit show from start to finish. But I would venture that nothing Trump did is as long-term-damaging to US interests than what the world is watching on its televisions right now.

The worrying thing is that I think you may actually be being serious! Shock
lljkk · 16/08/2021 16:32

YABU @ OP

@user34128913 -- What does "researcher" mean?
Yeah, the migrant kids put in cages who can never be reunited with their parents, this was great immigration policy being implemented. The Americans whose parents got deported for not being citizens those Americans hugely benefited from saying goodbye to their parents. Covid ran rampant in detention centres. Do tell us more how wonderful this all was.

TableFlowerss · 16/08/2021 16:33

I think the debate as to whether the west should have ever got involved in the Middle East is warranted.

I can it from both points of view so I feel conflicted. It’s almost like you damned if you do you’re damned if you don’t (get involved)

I think the decision to go ahead with it means that they would have to leave some troops there for potentially 30/40/50 years, because looking at what’s happening now, was it all in vein? All those lives lost for nothing?

I think this is when the rest of the world should come together and post soldiers from different countries and continents to show these extremists that they won’t win.

I really feel we need to protect those poor people that are stuck in that hell hole now. This is why I have a problem with religion. Say what you like, but their belief is a warped interpretation of a religion and they justify everything because they genuinely believe it’s gods will.

It’a fucked up to the highest order and people, particularly women are going to suffer immensely because if they’re deluded sense of reality. It’s a disgrace.

I don’t think it’s America’s issue or Britain’s issue alone. The whole works should be coming together because this is the type of shit that would happen all over the world if you let them take an inch. Think hitler!! His deluded beliefs caused misery and suffering to millions of people and he needed to be stopped as these lot do…..

daytriptovulcan · 16/08/2021 16:34

No, you ve got to be utterly wrong about that.

Lweji · 16/08/2021 16:34

I agree, Biden has decimated women's rights in the USA

How, exactly?
And in 7 months? For a supposedly senile President, I am impressed.

(do you even know what decimated means?)

NannyAndJohn · 16/08/2021 16:34

@Lweji

It seems that the number one aim of Woke Joe's presidency is to erase women and girls from existence.

I've seen some stupid comments on FB, and this is among the top.

The very first bill he passed was the erasure of women's sports.

He has no problem with convicted rapists using the girl's bathrooms and changing rooms.

Now he's sent hundreds of thousands of Afghan women and girls to their deaths.

He hates us.

Anonymous48 · 16/08/2021 16:35

@Ohsugarhoneyicetea

I agree, Biden has decimated women's rights in the USA and is now facilitating the murder of all those poor Afghani people who trusted the USA. Making everyone else in the world less safe in the process. Seems its still the wild west and the the biggest crook wins.
Biden has decimated women's rights in the USA

That is absolute nonsense. Are you a woman in the USA? I am, and my rights are a hell of a lot more secure under Biden than they were under Trump.

Yourstupidityexhaustsme · 16/08/2021 16:36

@Alondra

Americans are tired and they want out. Where’s everyone else? Where’s China or France or Germany or the UK? Where are the surrounding Arab countries? Nowhere. Instead of tarring and feathering Biden let’s look at holding some of the other world leaders accountable.

This is America's war. They tried and got many western countries in their drive to support to a war many European countries didnt believe in. I dont blame Biden but I fully blame America for yet again making a mess thinking of their gain in foreign policy and allowing making making a bigger mess for the countries who support them.

As an European have had a gutful of foreign American policies. The sooner we get an European force, the better

America's war?

It was the whole world's war. Do you not remember the sheer terror that followed 9/11? We all watched the towers burning and for lack of a better phrase, it was by sheer LUCK, that they weren't our towers.

America, rightly or wrongly, went in to get Bin Laden and Al-Qaeda and they did that. What was never the plan was to stay in definitely and police it until the end of days.

Intervention is needed - Yesterday! But not from one single country. From Everyone. From the UN and NATO and every strong force. America have spent twenty years of tax payer's money, twenty years of soldiers, twenty years of families waiting for their loved ones to come home. Is it any wonder there is such a national objection to further service.

The second Americans withdrew, the taliban were back. No level of intervention or policy could have prevented that. But it wasn't entirely of Biden's orchestration. These negotiations have been going on since Obama, what was he to do? Say no TY I think we're going to stay?

American presence is simply a bandaid for a bullet wound. The troops are there so the Taliban go underground. So it's deemed safe, the troops withdraw and oh look, they're back. So what? America just send more in? And the cycle perpetuates?

American policies monopolise the world, know what else monopolises the world? Terrorism. You cannot on one hand say America shouldn't have left and then on another say it's America's war. Pick your rhetoric.

There should be military presence in Afghanistan but not just America's. America have provided the absolute majority of bodies since the invasion and to simply brush it off as an American foreign policy does a disservice to every man and woman who died out there.

Lweji · 16/08/2021 16:38

But I would venture that nothing Trump did is as long-term-damaging to US interests than what the world is watching on its televisions right now.

You don't seem to realise that this was Trump's deal and doing, effectively.
He supported Biden in leaving now. Only criticised it was taking too long.
So....

If Trump had won, and had led the withdrawal, as he planned it, would you also be criticising Trump?

Remember this: Trump would proudly be conducting this withdrawal and denying there was anything wrong with it, right now, if he had won the elections.

MsMD · 16/08/2021 16:38

*It seems that the number one aim of Woke Joe's presidency is to erase women and girls from existence.

It sickens me to say this, but the Republican Party would get my vote any day.*

So you'd vote for the party which supports the rape of women? Because they supported a rapist president and rapist Supreme Court Judge.

But sure, let's pretend you care about women.

Zotter · 16/08/2021 16:38

Afghanistan is on both Trump and Biden (and us the U.K. for getting involved), but overall Biden any day over Trump. Trump did nothing for tackling climate change, those on lower incomes, refugees and much more. He lied that the election was a fraud and would happily have remained in power knowing he lost. He certainly did nothing to prevent groups like Proud Boys storming Capitol Hill and questions remain how directly involved he was. Trump is awful.

A solider on Twitter, so can’t verify source, says this is what actually happened in Afghanistan:

“2020 @mikepompeo gives in to Taliban at Doha, releases prisoners (including current leader), ends sanctions and has Trump announce date. Learning of this deal desertions within the Afghan forces immediately increases. The Taliban immediately start the takeover. Offering amnesty and cash to village governors and military forces so they can just roll on through without confrontation. Desertions start to snowball, this has been known for well over a year in the special forces community. The Taliban works their deals for over a year and a half moving from the outskirts to the provincial leadership thus ensuring an unchecked march all the way to Kabul when the time comes. US begins withdrawal, it doesn't matter who the president is, the Taliban rolls in.

Pompeo's deal and Trump stating the Taliban are a force of good that will fight terrorism was the final nail in the coffin regarding the morale/loyalty of the vast majority of the Afghani leaders and military. If you must play the blame game for the withdrawal, there's the facts.”

MarshaBradyo · 16/08/2021 16:39

Your I agree with you. Whoever is there is picking up the cost - lives included.

Some on here sound as if they’d like to pick up the mantle. You’ll need everyone on board to do it, if not US. And even then there’s no winning just insurance against extremism. But yes if some want that offer their own families etc

jasjas1973 · 16/08/2021 16:39

@Justanotherlurker

I'm disgusted with the UK also for not saving the translators who will surely be tortured and murdered. The risk to women and children too.

Do people only get their news from outrage re-tweets or something?

We are currently donig that, Priti Patel pretty much made the commennt yesterday

mobile.twitter.com/Telegraph/status/1427181017182445570

The Ambassador is only one of a handful left sorting this out, the US one disapeared yesterday.

Err the UK Govt (Ben Wallace) has said many wont get out - its not an outraged re tweet at all (whatever that is)

I get people better qualified than me said "lets leave" but its the manner in which it is being done, terrible and a complete betrayal.

This will be noted by others when it comes to trusting the British.

Are people really saying we have no influence with the USA ? or maybe we never even tried?

Chailatteplease · 16/08/2021 16:40

@Mulletsaremisunderstood

He talks the talk about female rights by championing his wife’s career and having a female Vice President

Only because he wants to appeal to young black voters and female voters.

If Trump is an old school outspoken sexist, then creepy Joe is the 'hiding in plain sight' version.
www.thecut.com/2020/04/joe-biden-accuser-accusations-allegations.html

Also, someone who thinks that men can be women because of a feeling, is no supporter of women's rights.

Any excuse for a transphobe to pipe up 🙄
MissConductUS · 16/08/2021 16:41

Biden has decimated women's rights in the USA

That is absolute nonsense. Are you a woman in the USA? I am, and my rights are a hell of a lot more secure under Biden than they were under Trump.

I'm an American woman and I agree with this completely. Trump had absolutely no boundaries, as is obvious by his insane attempts to hang onto power after losing the election.

The White House has just announced that Biden will do a press conference on Afghanistan today at 3:45 PM in the US, 8:45 in the UK if anyone is interested.

jasjas1973 · 16/08/2021 16:43

@MarshaBradyo

Your I agree with you. Whoever is there is picking up the cost - lives included.

Some on here sound as if they’d like to pick up the mantle. You’ll need everyone on board to do it, if not US. And even then there’s no winning just insurance against extremism. But yes if some want that offer their own families etc

Foreign policy isn't decided on "offer your own families then" rhetoric or we'd never do anything. Or do you think my mum wanted her son to go to the falklands?

The deployment of foreign forces in Afghanistan was a relative low risk deployment in recent times, as it was the Afghan army doing the fighting.

Lweji · 16/08/2021 16:43

Are people really saying we have no influence with the USA ? or maybe we never even tried?

BoJo didn't have when Trump was President and won't have now. And the never tried is probably the truth.
Some people seem to think much better of BoJo than he deserves.

Dissimilitude · 16/08/2021 16:44

@Lweji

But I would venture that nothing Trump did is as long-term-damaging to US interests than what the world is watching on its televisions right now.

You don't seem to realise that this was Trump's deal and doing, effectively.
He supported Biden in leaving now. Only criticised it was taking too long.
So....

If Trump had won, and had led the withdrawal, as he planned it, would you also be criticising Trump?

Remember this: Trump would proudly be conducting this withdrawal and denying there was anything wrong with it, right now, if he had won the elections.

It's not the leaving that's damaging. The leaving is correct!

It's the complete failure to understand the true state of the Afghan institutions we had "built" (and thus the collapse), that is unforgivable. It should have been possible to withdraw without Afghanistan falling to these wolves, but Biden either did not know what was truly going on, or did not care.

I despise Trump, always have. The total collapse is on Biden, I'm afraid, and if you cannot see how damaging the collapse of the Afghan government is, and just want to cast this as another front in the utterly tedious US culture war, you're not thinking about this correctly.

Yourstupidityexhaustsme · 16/08/2021 16:45

@Ohsugarhoneyicetea

I agree, Biden has decimated women's rights in the USA and is now facilitating the murder of all those poor Afghani people who trusted the USA. Making everyone else in the world less safe in the process. Seems its still the wild west and the the biggest crook wins.
My God.

How has Joe Biden, in the seven months of his presidency, decimated the rights of women?

Has he slashed medicaid so that most women cannot access birth control? Has he halted the bill allowing 3.4 million women to be paid the overtime her male colleagues receive? Passed legislation to allow employers to enforce sexist policies and not offer maternity pay? Scrapped funding for abortions and medical care? PROMISED TO ELECT A SC JUSTICE TO OVERTURN ROE V WADE? Openly defended sexual assault, sexual abusers and laughed at sexual assault? Endangered endless WOC by ridiculous tirades and the allowance of white supremacy?

Shall we continue? Oh wait no that was Trump.

Biden is a lot of things but the desecration of women's right is not by his hand alone.

I would share my bathroom long before I would share my uterus.

MarshaBradyo · 16/08/2021 16:45

The deployment of foreign forces in Afghanistan was a relative low risk deployment

Really? I suppose it’s easy to say if you’re unaffected but benefit.

You didn’t answer how many more troops you’d send. US troops? Or do you want to send the European ones you mentioned earlier

Westchesterarms · 16/08/2021 16:45

@MrsWhites

Westchesterarms

*Obama was withdrawing troops before Trump.

"Withdrawing the troops had to happen at some point but in such a way that it didn’t make the last 20 years of occupation absolutely pointless surely. How many soldiers have needlessly died to just allow the Taliban to return to power."

I wasn't debating the rights or wrongs of the withdrawal, just correcting the op who was saying that Trump was the one who started withdrawing troops when actually it was Obana who started it.