AIBU to insist we stay in London?

[londonlass33]

DH wants to leave London and I desperately don’t. We’ve visited numerous places in the south-east where we could viably live (due to commuting distance mainly) to house hunt and I’ve just not felt at home anywhere.

For me London has it all - culture, diversity, fabulous parks, restaurants, excellent public transport, nightlife, sports and myriad educational and job opportunities for the DC when they get older. Nowhere we’ve visited has come even close to my mind.

We also live in a lovely quiet street with a wonderful sense of community and are good friends with our fabulous neighbours. We have many friends in the area through the DC’s nursery too.

DH is adamant he wants to leave as whilst he acknowledges all of the above, he’s got his heart set on a change of scenery after the last 18 months. I’m very reluctant to give it a go for the aforementioned reasons and because it will be nigh on impossible to come back if we leave and regret it.

WWYD?

If you really explore London and the outskirts, there are lots of green, open spaces. You could be near a big park with a boating lake and kayaking for the kids: and stables up the road. You'd still be able to get to London Bridge by twenty minute train ride: that would be Bexley or Welling.

The problem with the rural areas, for kids, is that cars and vans hurtle along the lanes - which have no pavements, but sometimes only very narrow ditches. It's not always possible to traipse across fields, if the farmer doesn't like it. Kids do get bored of simply exploring, and then you'll be organising the kind of activities they would be doing in London: climbing, bowling, riding, skating - but everything much more spaced out. Bus services are terrible, so they'll be reliant on you.

I think your husband might explore how his idyllic dream for the kids could be brought to life in the capital. There are more facilities for kids within a compact space, in cities. The kids could be wildlife volunteers and have fun building dams and rescuing newts every weekend, if you team up with good organizations.

I live in North London, the crime map in my area puts the crime rate much lower than the market town I used to live in.

I may be wrong I just assumed there was more crime in the capital.

There seems to be this notion that the only place with any culture is london, of course there is music, theatre, great restaurants, museums and art throughout the country.

This is the equivalent of someone in Cumbria praising the Lake District and someone in London saying: there's hills and greenery everywhere, have you ever been to Hampstead Heath?

And I meant London as a whole as obviously there will be some pockets that are very low.

Also think about what commuting really means. So often places are advertised as 30 minutes to central london but that doesn't take into account the time it can take to get to the station (or cost if you have to park locally), but the irritation of only having limited trains. Where we are we have 4 an hour and even that annoys me as they're not every 15 minutes so if you miss one, you can wait 20 minutes for the next one. And since Covid, we're down to 2 an hour, at best. Similarly, getting home after an evening in london isn't as easy as "ooh, it's 30 minutes train" because there are fewer trains at night, you have to be 100% sure you catch the train because missing it could mean a 30+ minute wait so you're always leaving places early/panicking etc.

I mean, I've been able to work around that and it's not the end of the world, but it still annoys me. Tomorrow I have to go into the City and while the actual time spent on public transport will only be 45 minutes, I'm going to have to leave almost 90 minutes before I'm due at my meeting because I need 10 minutes to get to the station, then 35 minutes on a train that is the ONLY one I can take because the next train isn't until 32 minutes later and will make me late, then I have to do one of those annoying changes that can take 10 minutes and then there's a 10 minute walk on the other side. Or I can change tubes and have a 2 minute walk but suspect the time required is the same.

Definitely DON'T do it. I am a casualty from leaving London. I live on the coast now and have made new friends but I am very, very homesick. I can't afford to go back and I desperately want to because my 30 year marriage is ending and I want my old friends and to be where my roots are.

honestly don't understand why anyone chooses to live in London past their early twenties/young adulthood tbh. Because it is one of the most exciting cities in the world with the best job opportunities in the UK? I have never lived there myself and have no desire to but I can certainly understand why people of all ages do. Some grew up there, some have no option and some choose it - the same as Paris, New York, Tokyo, Sydney.

Do not sell your London home. Make it your red line that you keep that and try out any move by renting for at least 18 months anywhere else first. I agree with this. I don't think you should move really, as your plan is a known and your DH's is an illusion, but if you do try it, DO NOT SELL!

I think your DH is pursuing a dream though, rural life is not idyllic and we moved out of a city and back again, we were so glad to get back!

Do not sell your London home. Make it your red line that you keep that and try out any move by renting for at least 18 months anywhere else first. I agree with this. I don't think you should move really, as your plan is a known and your DH's is an illusion, but if you do try it, DO NOT SELL!

I think your DH is pursuing a dream though, rural life is not idyllic and we moved out of a city and back again, we were so glad to get back!

Brexit in microcosm! Unfortunately the UK sold the house. Don't make the same mistake.

DO NOT MOVE OUT. I cannot compare to London but the relative issue is the same:

I have lived in Dublin all my adult life. When DH and I were dating he worked outside Dublin so I moved out closer to him - huge mistake. My commute was hell, I was always tired and we did not "live" in either place. And all of this was before DC.

We sold up and moved back in - and life became calm. We now lived and worked in the same area (DH moved closer to Dublin for work and his commute was against all traffic). We still live in this area and 3 DC later, I would not contemplate moving to a country area and commuting 4 times a week - who would be the default parent when something came up at school or the DC were sick? Generally, mums do most of the heavy lifting with DC so if you do not want to move to where that load will increase for you, do not. And I would say the same if your DH was the main carer and it was you who wanted to move out of London.

In the cases where couples move out - usually the mother becomes a SAHM or part time worker, so her career suffers, but she makes the sacrifice because she wants to live in the country - you don't, so don't move.

Also, there are loads of women on here who have regretted the move out and could not afford to go back - that is the main downside to leaving a capital city for a larger home in the country - you cannot afford to move back (we were lucky we had only lived out of the city for 18 months, but even so, we would not have been able to afford the return if we hadn't both had major job promotions - and no DC).

Definitely don't sell. Move to a halfway type town and rent for a couple of years. I'm thinking Brighton. To me, a mini London with the added bonus of the sea. If you work near Victoria, what's not to like?

@MurielSpriggs

Do not sell your London home. Make it your red line that you keep that and try out any move by renting for at least 18 months anywhere else first. I agree with this. I don't think you should move really, as your plan is a known and your DH's is an illusion, but if you do try it, DO NOT SELL!

I think your DH is pursuing a dream though, rural life is not idyllic and we moved out of a city and back again, we were so glad to get back!

Brexit in microcosm! Unfortunately the UK sold the house. Don't make the same mistake.

I love this! I'm on your side, OP. DH and I have spent our whole adult life in London. Our kids are Londoners. DH grew up in a village, and said it was great till he was a teen then he was bored as hell. He needed lifts to do anything. And there wasn't much to do anyway! I do worry sometimes about crime rates (unfortunately it can't be ignored that there are some gang issues where I live). But county lines etc are certainly not confined to London. My DC's have a world of amazing cultural/ sporting etc opportunities right on their doorstep thanks to TFL. They have friends from around the world in their friendship groups. We live close enough to be able to "escape" and get to countryside really easily. We were also, along with most of our friends, fortunate enough to be able to afford a house plenty big enough for our family. My DCs bemoan the size of our garden, but over the next few years they'll be spending far more time in our lovely parks / local but amazing sports facilities, than they will kicking a ball out the back of the house. Don't do it!

You simply can't have looked everywhere for another home, and class all the places as being where you will never feel at home, because you are so much adhered to London now. But how will it all pan out, if your Husband will always have this longing for a much quieter place to live, and you won't change your views.

Is this a dealbreaker to either of you?

OP, you want to stay but your DH wants to leave. Neither of you are right/wrong but honestly how will this move forward?

I'd give him a list of the places you're prepared to consider. Nothing too far out. Good trains. No populations under 10,000 He'll probably find out that the house for your money equation makes a move pointless

I’d ask him to give it till sometime next year when things will hopefully have settled down and more will be opening up. I’d also try and go away weekends where you can to try and get that change of scene your DH is hankering for.

OP - perhaps suggest to your DH if he's happy to get a local job and do all the wrap around childcare Mon-Fri, then you'll consider it.

You might find he rapidly changes his mind.

Two parents commuting into London is do-able - but unlikely to be the work/life balance shift your DH is expecting.
Unless of course he's assuming you'll sort out the childcare.

You couldn't pay me to live in London with a young family - the pollution, the traffic, the crowds...

The comments about not being able to walk in the countryside are utterly bizarre and can only imagine those posters have never been outside the M25.

Having said that if your heart is in London you should stay. You cant insist though and it may ultimately end your marriage so perhaps compromise by renting for a year?

You cant insist though

But her husband can?

I do wonder about some London based MNers who seem to think outside the M25 is all uncivilised and if you aren't in London you are in the middle of nowhere.

Of course 2 people can commute into London, we both did it from towns outside London- dropped dc at nursery at 7:45, at station before 8, on a train to London that got in around 8:30. I mean, we were lucky we both had offices that could be reached from the same mainline station in a short period, if one of you needs to be right near Paddington and one right by Cannon Street, it will be harder to look for a property with a nice commute for you both. But its not impossible. Commuter towns are full of childminders who understand parents need to be on particular trains and offer the hours you'd need.

The OP doesn't want to leave London. Don't suggest her DH sorts drop off and pick up, because if he goes "sorted, we're moving to xxx town, I've found properties within a mile of the station in our price range with an extra bedroom and bigger garden, and 2 nurseries with places that means we won't need to change jobs." that doesn't fix thr problem the OP doesn't want to go.

Wait a bit. Right now you have the downsides of staying in the city but the upsides have all been cancelled.

I used to be one of those people that said "eurgh would never raise a family in London".

I grew up and spent my early adult years in one of the Home Counties and then worked and moved to London. Now I cant imagine raising children back in my home county. So as somebody who has lived in both during different stages of my life I will give you my personal pro's and con's of moving out:

Good selection of grammar schools. But then this is also a con as there are also some diabolical comprehensive schools compared to the better ones that are in my London area.

A quieter and slower way of living. But then the con to this is no access to 24/7 public transport, shops, takeaways. Sometimes you have to wait 40 mins for the next bus, which as a child was crap when trying to meet friends. Had to rely on parents driving me around until I could drive.

I had limited access to actual nice parks - the parks in my home county I wouldn't dream of having a picnic in and socialising in like the ones I do in London. But then that might just have been my area.

Depending where you move to you will see the same faces. This is why I enjoyed moving out of my hometown. Everybody knows each other and it's very "small town". Everyone knows each other's business, when I hear my parents talking about "so and so from across the road" it makes me cringe. And it's the same with DH's family. Very small town politics you don't really get in London.

The commute I didn't enjoy. I lived in very close proximity to London but still had to drive to a station pay extortionate cost for this and then get the train into London and repeat on the journey home. After a while this journey becomes tedious. My commute within London now isn't much quicker but there's a hell of a lot less faff and having to drive around before work to drop off a baby/child instead of walking like you would in London doesn't sound appealing.

Crime. Well crime in London depends really where you leave. I felt more unsafe in my home county than I've ever felt in London. Lots of dark, unpopulated or quiet roads I had to walk where it would be easy to be assaulted. As a young woman I would very rarely walk alone. I have never felt unsafe doing this in London. If you have children this is something to consider. Some places actually have higher crime rates than London. My home county had one of the highest stabbing rates...

Aside from the pollution issue in London I would much rather raise a young family here than I would in my home county and seeing my family raising theirs in the home county has confirmed this even more. If I want to spend a quality day out in London it's all within a walking distance, my family on the other hand have to drive everywhere and across towns to get to any place of interest.

I think you have to be careful what you wish for, I know plenty who moved out but both still commuting and ended up with £11k a year commute costs and a marginally better home that they rarely saw plus big hassles such as being able to just nip and pick a sick child up from nursery or school . This all works much better if one parent has a local job , otherwise it really can be a hassle. As I said above maybe a leafier outer London area might fit the bill more - unless you already live in one OP

We left South London over 20 years ago and have regretted it every day since. The choice was move or become unemployed. Not sure I made the right choice.

My son has never had a lawn - but nearly park - but teenage years public transport was great - a friend of his who is thinking of moving to a city for work said - this is brilliant - you do not need to book a tram or a bus - they just turn up, I think in later teenage years or early twenties public transport is great - unless you are rich enough to buy a car.

not nearly park - near bye park

A PP who said you (or more usefully your DH) will have to consider the logistics of closed schools/sick DC/staying in for workmen/deliveries. I grew up in the country and I was bored, under socialised and basically deeply unhappy for most of my teens. I don't know if there's any spare cash to do this but perhaps buy some woodland. If building is forbidden, costs are significantly lower and you can go there as a family and build camps...