Taliban enter Kabul

[tttigress]

I was in my early 20's when 9/11 happened, the last 20 years has been overshadowed by endless wars without clearly defined objectives (original point of going into Afghanistan was to "get" Al Qaeda, there was then massive mission creep)

AIBU to think the last 20 years in Afghanistan was a total waste of time?

@SixesAndEights

I have no idea why anyone thinks if we stayed it would influence the US to do anything other than what they wanted to.

Go research the Suez Crisis, that was a total humiliation when the UK thought the US would back us up and they were like, no thanks.

Alliance/cooperation/whatever with the US is one way.

U.K. pulled all combat troops out of Afghanistan in 2014. Since then only had a handful of nato observers and liaison officers there. Don’t act like the US started the withdrawal.

@jasjas1973

oh and wht withdrawal? i see blind panic

Where have you been? They’ve been reducing the troops in Afghanistan for the past decade. This isn’t a last minute, panic button thing like the withdrawal from Vietnam was.

@jasjas1973

Yes Ben Wallace is saying it was a mistake NOW. But he said the exact opposite in April...only four months ago when he ordered U.K. troops to withdraw in May.....

www.bbc.com/news/uk-56744265

“The UK is to "drawdown" the number of troops in Afghanistan from next month, Defence Secretary Ben Wallace has said.
Confirming the planned departure of forces, Mr Wallace also warned any attacks on existing troops would be "met with a forceful response".
The UK military has been in Afghanistan since 2001, with more than 450 British troops dying during the conflict with the Taliban and fighters from al-Qaeda.
The US has said it will withdraw all forces by 11 September.
And Nato confirmed allies would begin withdrawing troops from 1 May.
The last UK combat troops left in 2014, but about 750 remain as part of the Nato mission to train Afghan forces.
In a statement, Mr Wallace said: "The people of Afghanistan deserve a peaceful and stable future.
"As we drawdown, the security of our people currently serving in Afghanistan remains our priority and we have been clear that attacks on Allied troops will be met with a forceful response.
"The British public and our Armed Forces community, both serving and veterans, will have lasting memories of our time in Afghanistan.
"Most importantly we must remember those who paid the ultimate sacrifice, who will never be forgotten."

Kabul airport now reported to be under fire

This is truly terrifying

We should never have gone in. The Taliban have now got some very expensive kit which in part UK tax payers paid for. It is time to be out fully ( our troops left in 2014 already anyway in the UK). Obama started this (withdrawal) , then Trump and now Biden. Even in the 1800s the UK being in this region was always a mistake.

China has gulags for 1m muslims, N Korea has the worst prison camps on the planet and many other countries are pretty awful. We cannot police the world. We need to ensure we stop ISIS bombing us here in the UK and concentrate on the UK.

[quote notimagain]@StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind

Rory Stewart has been interviewed multiple times about this recently and has spoken well. He described continued air support as relatively low risk, sustainable and vital.

Any idea what he meant by air support?[/quote]
Seem as the Afghan Army aren't fighting, what's the point of offeriy "Air Support" (air support means bombing the Taliban with planes)

@tttigress

I was in my early 20's when 9/11 happened, the last 20 years has been overshadowed by endless wars without clearly defined objectives (original point of going into Afghanistan was to "get" Al Qaeda, there was then massive mission creep)

AIBU to think the last 20 years in Afghanistan was a total waste of time?

Yes, a waste of time and lives. Just like Britains three previous wars with Afghanistan, Afghan Wars, (1839–42; 1878–80; 1919) .

www.britannica.com/event/Anglo-Afghan-Wars

and the Societ-Afghan war, (1979 to 89).

Unfortunately this was always going to happen. The Taliban had time to wait, they knew the US and NATO could frankly not afford, either financially or in manpower, to stay in perpetuity. They were always going to move in upon a withdrawal, the same as they did when the Soviets bankrupted themselves there.

The level of corruption within the Kabul government and the ANA was, and is, insane. They took western money and training but they knew their time was limited, and they were never going to risk their own lives and those of their families when the Taliban moved back in, especially not to protect a rival tribe. Ultimately Afghanistan is a tribal ‘country’, trying to enforce a centralised government with western values on the place was doomed to failure.

I have a large number of friends and families in the USAF, including people who have spent the entirety of their careers in Afghanistan. No one is surprised at this.

@Xenia

We should never have gone in. The Taliban have now got some very expensive kit which in part UK tax payers paid for. It is time to be out fully ( our troops left in 2014 already anyway in the UK). Obama started this (withdrawal) , then Trump and now Biden. Even in the 1800s the UK being in this region was always a mistake.

China has gulags for 1m muslims, N Korea has the worst prison camps on the planet and many other countries are pretty awful. We cannot police the world. We need to ensure we stop ISIS bombing us here in the UK and concentrate on the UK.

Exactly.

I also find it odd people going on about women's rights when they have few rights in any middle eastern country.

It is obviously concerning watching the blow by blow accounts on the news and yes it will continue to be a haven for terrorists but I'm not sure what the solution was, well other than a comprehensive transition period but even so the Taliban would probably have done exactly the same thing at the end of it.

It's going to be harder to stop extremists carrying out bombings and other atrocities

The clock is turning back to 1996 when the Taliban entered Kabul and founded their Islamic Emirate. It's where the terrorist training camps were, and there is no reason to expect they will not become re-established. Yes, there were other places where terrorists could train and plot. But Afghanistan - with a wholly supportive government - was the biggest breeding ground. And there's now nothing to stop it happening again

other than a comprehensive transition period

That has been going on, in phases, since about 2014.

but even so the Taliban would probably have done exactly the same thing at the end of it

Yup

I agree this is absolutely shocking and shaming for the UK and allies. We are led by a bunch of immoral incompetents.

I feel incredibly sorry for the ordinary citizens, who must be terrified and in no position to fight back. Boris Johnson said in an interview that at least the girls have had 20 years of education as a result of Western intervention (as though we should celebrate this as a success) - they have now been abandoned and their education will be worth nothing, and quite possibly put them in more danger. Apparently schools exams should have taken place in Afghanistan these last few days - all cancelled of course.

@Mummyratbag

I feel sick for them. The women and girls that will be raped. The boys/men that will be recruited/beaten/killed... it's truly, truly awful.

On BBC news today a local said they entered her village killed all the men and boys only sparing females

@impossible

I agree this is absolutely shocking and shaming for the UK and allies. We are led by a bunch of immoral incompetents.

I feel incredibly sorry for the ordinary citizens, who must be terrified and in no position to fight back. Boris Johnson said in an interview that at least the girls have had 20 years of education as a result of Western intervention (as though we should celebrate this as a success) - they have now been abandoned and their education will be worth nothing, and quite possibly put them in more danger. Apparently schools exams should have taken place in Afghanistan these last few days - all cancelled of course.

How long do you think the West should stay?

Having gone in (which we almost certainly shouldn't) we should have done the job possibly and at least set up a peace keeping force for however long the transition needed.

.. done the job properly..

Afghani population have to want democracy and fight for it on their own. Ther only cheerful thing I read in my newspaper this morning was that China wants to mine copper in some areas. I smirk to say that I don't think it will happen. Afghanistan has driven off the British Empire in the 1830s, the Russians, America and Nato. I reckon the Chinese will get a bloodied nose too.

On BBC news today a local said they entered her village killed all the men and boys only sparing females

And in order to survive, in order to avoid starvation, those women and girls will be forced to marry. So sexual (and drudge) slavery for life for the women and girls, a completely intentional outcome from the Taliban.

@impossible

I agree this is absolutely shocking and shaming for the UK and allies. We are led by a bunch of immoral incompetents.

I feel incredibly sorry for the ordinary citizens, who must be terrified and in no position to fight back. Boris Johnson said in an interview that at least the girls have had 20 years of education as a result of Western intervention (as though we should celebrate this as a success) - they have now been abandoned and their education will be worth nothing, and quite possibly put them in more danger. Apparently schools exams should have taken place in Afghanistan these last few days - all cancelled of course.

I think you'll find it's Afghanistan that is led by a bunch of immoral incompetents.

They've had 20 years of funding and support. It is a worrying situation but again the taliban were outnumbered by the Afghan army yet have had little resistance.

It's going to be harder to stop extremists carrying out bombings and other atrocities

But we can’t stop the taliban that have bases and train in the northern mountains of Pakistan. The west can’t police the whole world.

The sooner we move away from oil and bankrupt the Middle East states bankrolling this, the better.

@impossible

Having gone in (which we almost certainly shouldn't) we should have done the job possibly and at least set up a peace keeping force for however long the transition needed.

When you say done the job properly what do you mean? Get rid of Taliban or something else - is that feasible given it’s been 20 years already

As pp we have been in transition but also what does the peace keeping force look like if not what was there already?

The Taliban can wait until whenever the time is right to strike

I've heard a few people say Afghans should fight for democracy/women's rights on their own if they want them but I'm not sure its possible for people who are being controlled by brutal medieval practices to fight back without support. It took Europe many centuries to escape the medieval period and it's horrors.

The majority of Afghans seem to like the taliban. Not much can be done after 20 years of trying to help...

air support means bombing the Taliban with planes

It could mean a whole host of things…providing transport (helicopters) or ISTAR (intelligence and targeting amongst other things).

If Rory Stewart actually meant CAS ( Close Air support) then depending on how it’s done It can be far from minimal risk, that’s why I was interested in what exactly it meant when he used the phrase.