Taliban enter Kabul

[tttigress]

I was in my early 20's when 9/11 happened, the last 20 years has been overshadowed by endless wars without clearly defined objectives (original point of going into Afghanistan was to "get" Al Qaeda, there was then massive mission creep)

AIBU to think the last 20 years in Afghanistan was a total waste of time?

@PicsInRed

On BBC news today a local said they entered her village killed all the men and boys only sparing females

And in order to survive, in order to avoid starvation, those women and girls will be forced to marry. So sexual (and drudge) slavery for life for the women and girls, a completely intentional outcome from the Taliban.

Yes and we gave £300 million in aid to Pakistan last year and the taliban is still active there. Child brides are still taken. Homosexuals are still murdered. I could go on but you get the gist. Western involvement changes little and in most cases makes it worse.

@ThePriceIsNotRight I agree 100% with your post.

I'm horrified about this terrible crisis, but IMO it was always a question of 'when, and not 'if'.

Western democracy is reviled in huge swathes of tribal countries like Afghanistan, Pakistan and surrounding nations. The ideology of Islamic fundamentalism remains strong.

I think fundamental international power shifts are happening right now. Russia tried and failed in Afghanistan. The Western allies have now failed. Who is left? Who is big enough, strong enough, has nuclear weapons and huge internment camps for Muslims already? Right on Afghanistan's doorstep? China, of course. Nothing will surprise me now. 😥

God help the people of Afghanistan.

@Idontknowwhat2

The majority of Afghans seem to like the taliban. Not much can be done after 20 years of trying to help...

Yes this is the sad truth.

As awful as the situation is now, how long should we stayed there?

Another 20 years? You cannot will people's battles for them, you cannot make then accept your values. They need to want democracy themselves.

DH has been to Afghanistan on tour. He said the majority of the Afghan army couldn’t be trusted as far as you could throw them. They would steal anything not nailed down and desert the moment they were asked to do anything. You can’t help people who won’t help themselves. They have been given billions of pounds worth of equipment but most of it has been stolen or trashed because they don’t understand how to use it (despite being shown how, over and over).

As Putin said. Afghanistan is a bottomless pit of misery.

I honestly don't know what he meant exactly- that was a pinned tweet on his Twitter- but there are other interviews he has done recently on his Twitter where there might be a bit more context to what he was saying.

$86 billion has been spent by the USA in/on Afghanistan, and it has taken six or seven weeks to lose the country to the Taliban/Islamists. I don't think the Chinese will be welcome when they try economic invasion either. But how awful for the Afghan people.

I finished re-reading A Thousand Splendid Suns two weeks ago and said to myself ‘well, at least THAT isn’t happening any more’

@Crayfishforyou

I finished re-reading A Thousand Splendid Suns two weeks ago and said to myself ‘well, at least THAT isn’t happening any more’

That book will always stay with me. It's horrific. Can't believe that things are going back to that dark place again.

The uk has pumped £750 million in humanitarian aid into Afghanistan since 2016.
£750 million that would have been better spent to tackle poverty in this country.
£750 million wasted on the corrupt getting richer whilst the taliban just waited us out to re-emerge without any real opposition.

And to think, the event which catalysed the Afghan invasion/ occupation is a matter of weeks away from its 20th anniversary 🤔. It's like the last 20 years just didn't happen.

It’s funny while the US and allies were there and the country was relatively peaceful and women weren’t swathed in burkas and could learn to read and be an MP they’re criticised as neo-colonialist western imperialists occupying a poor defenceless country and should withdraw so the indigenous people can rule themselves into a new age of democracy, peace and prosperity
But the second the US and allies withdraw.....wham! They’re criticised about twenty years occupation not being enough. How dare they leave and the country to fall into chaos and it’s the US fault that the Taliban are persecuting all women and all non Muslims
At some point a country should get its own shit together

Well said Plan. The usual tedious cries of "It's all the west's fault" were predictable, but no matter how hard they try there's only so much can be done in a tribal nation that's effectively returned itself to the stone age, with attitudes to match

For me, if there's blame to be had, it's in the mission creep OP referred to. Doubtless they meant well, but it was never going to work and frankly I'm glad they're coming home

Yes, I think a cold hard decision has been taken at the highest level of US power - not the president, but government advisors - to let China have that region and let Afghanstan take China to school.

China and India are already clashing over borders, regional influence and the belt and road, this will be another flash point which will keep China occupied.

This is not unexpected and the Taliban were waiting for it. The hand ringing is what happens when people do not get the context or decision making behind it. I suspect there is some deeper intervention at play from Iran or Saudi, given the diplomatic moves. Money is to be made, as it has been for people who have got themselves in a clever position, in the last 20 years. Believing the narrative that this situation is an ideological decision rather than economic one is a bit naive. Look at the countries who border or are in close proximity to Afghanistan? It can never keep its nose clean, no matter how hard external forces hand hold.

@KaptainKaveman

And to think, the event which catalysed the Afghan invasion/ occupation is a matter of weeks away from its 20th anniversary 🤔. It's like the last 20 years just didn't happen.

More than that - we've just see the clock wind back to 1996, when the Taliban entered Kabul anddtablished their Islamic Emirate

Does anyone know what the Covid-19 situation is like there?

Will there be aid efforts going in? Is the world just going to watch civilians being raped and murdered without intervening?

Does anyone know what the Covid-19 situation is like there?

www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/afghanistan/

Will there be aid efforts going in?

That will depend on how he situation stabilises and whether aid organisations can work safely

Is the world just going to watch civilians being raped and murdered without intervening?

What's the alternative? No-one poised to invade

What would your solution be?

Horrifying

I believe the red crescent still operates in Afghanistan. I have no idea if it will still be safe for them to do so.

@KaptainKaveman

And to think, the event which catalysed the Afghan invasion/ occupation is a matter of weeks away from its 20th anniversary 🤔. It's like the last 20 years just didn't happen.

The 20 year 9/11 commemoration is going to be interesting.

It's about time we started asking some hard questions of politicians in all parties.

@EddyF

Does anyone know what the Covid-19 situation is like there?

Will there be aid efforts going in? Is the world just going to watch civilians being raped and murdered without intervening?

They do it here don’t they? When have serious efforts ever been made to stop men in the U.K.? It’s all excuses and blaming women.

Women and girls have to defend ourselves, men will not do it for us.

It feels like my husbands tour of Afghan (herrick 13) was completely in vain. 6 months of fucking torture for me, thankfully before we became parents.
It was always going to happen when we completely withdrew, along with the US.
I worry for our serving armed forces now, and what it means.

@Wannakisstheteacher

DH has been to Afghanistan on tour. He said the majority of the Afghan army couldn’t be trusted as far as you could throw them. They would steal anything not nailed down and desert the moment they were asked to do anything. You can’t help people who won’t help themselves. They have been given billions of pounds worth of equipment but most of it has been stolen or trashed because they don’t understand how to use it (despite being shown how, over and over).

As Putin said. Afghanistan is a bottomless pit of misery.

I had a relative who did a couple of tours there. They were building a school but they had to guard it every single night otherwise everything would have been stolen.

But l guess they had nothing so wanted it for themselves.

@impossible

I've heard a few people say Afghans should fight for democracy/women's rights on their own if they want them but I'm not sure its possible for people who are being controlled by brutal medieval practices to fight back without support. It took Europe many centuries to escape the medieval period and it's horrors.

Afghan National Security Forces were given support and training over many years. They were well armed and vastly outnumbered the taliban yet did not fight to save their country.

The medieval period in europe was a period in time, not a regime to escape.

Those poor people. I'm not kidding but if I lived there I would be making plans to prepare to end my life. If I'd grown up under the Taliban, then spent most of my adult life with a degree of freedom and hope for a better future. I'm not sure I could go back to the way I'd lived for the first half of my life.

And if I was known to have spoken up/tried to improve women's rights. If I was known to have had same sex relationships. If I was known to not follow Islam. If I had worked for the Americans, other Western representatives or had been a part of the government of a few hours ago. Or any other severe breach of Sharia Law. I don't think I'd wait. There are going to be so many people about to suffer a fate far worse than a simple death. It's just horrific.