Taliban enter Kabul

[tttigress]

I was in my early 20's when 9/11 happened, the last 20 years has been overshadowed by endless wars without clearly defined objectives (original point of going into Afghanistan was to "get" Al Qaeda, there was then massive mission creep)

AIBU to think the last 20 years in Afghanistan was a total waste of time?

I understand the protesters anger but this crisis was made in the WH. American NATO allies were not involved in the decision making process or informed of the abrupt withdrawal of US troops. We are now scrambling to deal with the fall out and are actually doing a much better job of the evacuation than the US. Our special forces are leaving the airport to rescue people, the US military have been instructed to stay put. I guess someone needs to keep the only exit route (who thought that would work?) out of the country secure.

I disagree with Xenia on most things but have to agree this is about money. Not what maintaining a military presence costs goverments but who is getting rich off the back of this cluster fuck.

The telephone numbers provided by the Foreign, Commonwealth
& Development Office to help British citizens and their families in Afghanistan either goes straight to a voicemail sending people back to the govt website or nothing at all.

We have a useless government!

FOJN - this just gets worse and worse. What was that useless PM of ours doing and Raab? To think that they could just buzz of on holiday while people get crushed to death. This was foreseeable. I feel so angry and upset.

I find the protests in London pathetic. I bet the same people wouldn’t get on a plane back to their homeland to protest against the actual people who have destroyed their country. Their fellow Afghans who didn’t even put up a fight to save the place from ruin again.

No, far easier to wave placards in the country that gave you a new home and who is currently risking its soldiers lives to get more of your countrymen to safety.

Go ahead, report away. A poster veered from the Left. Oops!

Unconfirmed French inteligence and rumours online of ISIS operating in the area now.

twitter.com/joel_rayburn/status/1429039165937799175?s=21

twitter.com/suddafchaudry/status/1429093342210498562?s=21

Apply the US took the 16 000 contractors who maintained the Afghan army airfleet with them, and have been openly negotiating with the Taliban. So they have effectivelybeen knee capped by the US.

Sould the unarmed population take on drug crazed zealots armed with AK47s?

Ignorant and hateful post

@ApplyWithin

I find the protests in London pathetic. I bet the same people wouldn’t get on a plane back to their homeland to protest against the actual people who have destroyed their country. Their fellow Afghans who didn’t even put up a fight to save the place from ruin again.

No, far easier to wave placards in the country that gave you a new home and who is currently risking its soldiers lives to get more of your countrymen to safety.

Go ahead, report away. A poster veered from the Left. Oops!

Why would we want people capable of rebuilding the country to go back and face beheadings and mass burials. They will be in a position of strength if they can work against the Taliban from the UK and other countries, at least for now.

Peregrina

I wouldn't sing our governments praises over this issue but in an attempt to be fair to them they were really caught on the back foot. Biden didn't have a workable evacuation plan, things were left too late (why are visa applications being processed at the airport when there are just days left until the deadline), there was no communication between the WH and NATO allies so the UK, France and Germany are doing the best they can in a terrible situation that is not of their making.

The situation is awful but I think there is scope for it to get much worse. I'm really concerned Al Qaeda will use the chaos as an opportunity to carry out a terrorist attack on the airport which will end any evacuation attempt. I hope I'm wrong.

No they are putting pressure on the government to do more to get people out. People can't get safely to the airport. We're not close to honouring what we said and when the US leave we won't be able to do it at all. I don't know what the contingency for the contingency plan is but we need to dig deep to find it.

@ApplyWithin

I find the protests in London pathetic. I bet the same people wouldn’t get on a plane back to their homeland to protest against the actual people who have destroyed their country. Their fellow Afghans who didn’t even put up a fight to save the place from ruin again.

No, far easier to wave placards in the country that gave you a new home and who is currently risking its soldiers lives to get more of your countrymen to safety.

Go ahead, report away. A poster veered from the Left. Oops!

Oh they should just 'put up a fight' should they, and how do you suppose they do that? Would you fancy hopping on a plane to Afghanistan and taking on the taliban?

Unconfirmed French inteligence and rumours online of ISIS operating in the area now.

I think the advice issued to US citizens not to go to the airport because of security concerns is confirmation of that. We are now entering worse case scenario territory.

[quote Justanotherlurker]Unconfirmed French inteligence and rumours online of ISIS operating in the area now.

twitter.com/joel_rayburn/status/1429039165937799175?s=21

twitter.com/suddafchaudry/status/1429093342210498562?s=21[/quote]
The report in that second tweet sounds highly highly suspect…I’d say it’s very much as you say in the “unconfirmed” and “rumours” category.

@Xenia

It is a difficult issue and people make good points. However video has been shown today of an Orthodox Jewish man being punched in the face without cause by a man in long white muslim clothes (who I suppose could be someone dressing up to pretend who he was - I don't know) in broad day light. We have 2m muslims and 250,000 jews in the UK and I want us to start with protecting them and the rest of the 67m of us here.

Also I disagree on income taxes. Most people pay about 33% income tax and NI if they work full time. That is pretty high. others pay 47% tax./NI marginal rate (our upper rate) some plus 9% student loan "tax". For higher earners never in British history have we paid so much of the UK's income tax burden. I work half the year to pay income tax and some of the rest to pay all the other taxes - I just paid loads of insurance premium tax for example, never mind nearly £4000 council tax a year.

You do know it's not the Taliban making their way over here? It's ordinary Afghan people - doctors, nurses, engineers, administrators, children and babies - who don't want that kind of life.

People can't get safely to the airport.

Our special forces are going out to get people. German forces took a helicopter out to rescue 169 people to get them to the airport. The French are doing the same. It is only the US forces who have been instructed not to leave the airport. All of the military personnel are also in grave danger and doing their best. We have to balance the risk of how many we can rescue against the potential loss of life trying. I know that sounds mercenary but this is the reality.

We are unlikely to be able to fulfil our duty of honour to evacuate all the Afghan people who worked with allied forces and we should be ashamed about that.

Fojn

I agree.

I cannot fathom Biden at all.
It feels like he has simply cut everyone off.
What did they talk about at g7??

I'm getting a very different view of Biden that's cold and can't get close too.

Yes unfortunately... We have responded appallingly but this really was americas show, they took the lead, they suddenly left the bagra air base, hadn't done contingent planning properly and left everyone in the lurch.

Did anyone see the very lastest pentagon briefing?
The situation is changing hour by hour and they look absolutely, terrified.

The American top brass are white as sheets and terrified. This is worse than they could have ever imagined

Yy tweet sounds odd re Isis.

Yes and we should all be angry with the US administration. It is a monumental fuck up. Heavens knows where the world is heading, but I know we are going to need a stronger and united European military capacity in coming years.

I am hoping we do not get scenes like Mogadishu in 1993. Biden's handling now is not too dissimilar to Clinton's then.

pmk

I know we are going to need a stronger and united European military capacity in coming years.

Yes we are, the situation in Afghanistan will set in motion a chain of events which demands it.

Yes and we should all be angry with the US administration. It is a monumental fuck up. Heavens knows where the world is heading, but I know we are going to need a stronger and united European military capacity in coming years.

They either had to colonise or leave eventually after successfully or unsuccessfully attempting to force your ideology on the nation. They can't stay forever if you choose the second option, and outside of Kabul the ideology was largely rejected.

All presidents since Obama have gone for the second option, the way its been handled is a shit show, but the ANA are not absolved of critisim either, but this is primarily on Biden.

Eu looking very military weak.
Apparently, only France and UK have decent military?

They should never have relied on us so much at all anyway.

The optics

The anniversary of 9/11 and the west are on their knees begging the taliban /Al queda for help to rescue their citizens

Yeah, I agree it is all about the money. Some might find this article interesting, if they haven't already found it. www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/afghanistan-us-taliban-victory-end-western-empire "Will Taliban victory mark the beginning of the end of the western empire"
It's got a few talking points in it, including "There is an alternative to that mad logic of thinking that you are promoting democracy by dropping drones on poor people thousands of miles away. Just imagine if the US had spent $2 trillion on the Afghan people themselves. Just imagine if it had sought to influence religious conservative movements like the Taliban, not through warfare, but by engagement. Not through drones, but through dialogue. Just imagine where Afghanistan would be now, and just imagine how much soft power the West would still have."

The idea of an EU army was repeatedly quashed by the UK in favour of NATO. We'll probably see one slowly start to surface.