Taliban enter Kabul

[tttigress]

I was in my early 20's when 9/11 happened, the last 20 years has been overshadowed by endless wars without clearly defined objectives (original point of going into Afghanistan was to "get" Al Qaeda, there was then massive mission creep)

AIBU to think the last 20 years in Afghanistan was a total waste of time?

@Justanotherlurker

If you were Foreign Secretary, would you have gone abroad for half of the month in which the evacuation was planned? Would you have believed the Taliban? Would you have believed Boris?

If you reply to any of those answers as 'Yes' then resign. You have no ability to take charge.

Cartel Of Incompetents. The US administration. The UK Government.

@Proudboomer

And now we will have the hand wringing of how we have abandoned the people of Afghanistan and how women and children will suffer because of it.

No the west has spent 20 years, $800billon and thousands of western life’s both dead and injured to try to bring democracy and stability to a country that clearly doesn’t want it. The Afghan army trained and paid for by the west hasn’t fought for their own country so why the hell should our sons and daughters do so?
Biden has cocked up the withdrawal but the withdrawal but we need to get out and stay out now.

The west has abandoned the people of afghanistan. The West pulled staff out and didn't tell the afghans, so they found out when they woke up in the morning.

The Americans buggered off and took the contractors with them, leaving the Afghans with nothing.

"Get out and stay out now". Say people safe from the Taliban. Women posting on the internet... you wouldn't be allowed that. Western privillege. The West spent 20 years showing Afghanistan how things could be. Then withdrew the lot. That's just cruel. Cruel and inhumane. "You could have this, but we decided you're not having it, because..."

It was in the telegraph so will instantly be ignored, despite Jake Sullivan's comments.

@Justanotherlurker

I doubt that. The Taliban and ISIS don't work well together. In fact, the Taliban apparently pulled an ISIS leader out of Kabul prison and executed him.

I agree it is rumours after all, but enemy of my enemy situation is happening in the Middle east at the minute, it's in their collective interest, hence why China is making in roads.

But they're in direct competition with each other. ISIS are set on expanding the Islamic state, including Afghan territory, while the Taliban have so far expressed no interest in spreading beyond Afghan borders. They fundamentally distrust ISIS, consider them Western puppets and have been fighting them in Afghanistan for years. If anything it suits the Taliban to be seen as some sort of Islamic police keeping ISIS away - it signals to China and Russia that they are open to business.

@Proudboomer

Can I recommend that you read some wider material on Afghanistan. Also, it might have helped if you had signed up and spent some time in a western army. Then you might have a chance of being taken seriously with the particular comments you have just made. You might also want to consider your daughters, nieces and other females and how they might fare under a brutal Islamic regime like the Taliban offer.

I've just googled it.

36 hours and he didn't respond

36 hours and our partner didn't respond. Wow.

Biden doesn't have to like us, he can think this special relationship is a pile of shit.
He can go down a new path but 36 hours in an absolutely major major operation with us trailing behind with our staff, our soldiers....

36 hours.

Proudboomer

You may find these links useful.

The first one is a wiki page which gives a reasonable concise summary of events over the last 18 months which lead us to where we are today. From the news I've read and seen it looks reasonably accurate and is up to date.

The second link is for a documentary about events in Afghanistan over the last 60 years or so. The interviews with the women in it were recorded in 2019 but there captions with very recent up dates about each of them right at the very end. It's well worth a watch, it refreshed my memory as well as educating me on some things I hadn't previously known about.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_of_United_States_troops_from_Afghanistan_(2020%E2%80%932021)

If this is true then Rabb does need to resign.

news.sky.com/story/afghanistan-dominic-raab-faces-fresh-calls-to-resign-over-claims-he-nobbled-boris-johnson-to-stay-on-holiday-amid-kabul-crisis-12387451

Raab even.

A news report that cites SNP and Labour calling out a tory doesn't mean he should stand down.

He should, but him making that phone call is getting into the relms of alternative history of how this would have panned out, at the time it was 'understood' Kabul would not have been over run, it wouldn't have made a difference in the rush to the airport and being left to the UK and French special ops doing saftey runs whilst the Americans stood by and the Swedes blocked numbers and fucked off.

It's looking for easy scapegoats. Raab can get sacked and the situation is still shit, he could have come back and the situation would still be the same.

Oh dear, lots of news agency are now reporting that there is an isis threat at the airport.

@Justanotherlurker

A news report that cites SNP and Labour calling out a tory doesn't mean he should stand down.

He should, but him making that phone call is getting into the relms of alternative history of how this would have panned out, at the time it was 'understood' Kabul would not have been over run, it wouldn't have made a difference in the rush to the airport and being left to the UK and French special ops doing saftey runs whilst the Americans stood by and the Swedes blocked numbers and fucked off.

It's looking for easy scapegoats. Raab can get sacked and the situation is still shit, he could have come back and the situation would still be the same.

What would you have done @Justanotherlurker ?

See my post at 20:31:57.

I despise and fear this man. But he knew what to do. We have to compete with this now.

This completes it.

You are Secretary of State for Foreign , Commonwealth and Development Affairs of the UK and you are told that an international crisis, in an area of massive geo political importance, where we have and have had had a significant military presence for 20 years is entering an unfolding crisis do you

a Take the next plane home. because the world needs to see that this is an issue that the UK takes seriously, especially now we are free of the EU and are free to forge our own path in the brave new world.

b say fuck it, I'm on holiday.

If b what is the point of you?

That Johnson went on holiday on Saturday has been confirmed

When reporters asked what days the PM had been on holiday, the PM spox said on Monday:

"He was working last week - he was due to take a break at the weekend but has been working"

He was asked if the PM had gone on holiday on Saturday and returned on Sunday:

"Yes"

@FOJN

The withdrawal date of all US forces to leave was announced, we knew but the sun loungers of Crete were more appealing.

The deadline was announced but when things seemed to be escalating out of control Biden would not even take or return a phone call from Boris Johnson.

Bagram Airbase was abandoned by US forces without informing the Commander of the Afghan military who were also stationed there, the commander was informed several hours after the US military left that they were gone for good and with them the contractors responsible for keeping Afghan aircraft in service.

Johnson didn't ring Biden, he agreed the withdrawal months ago and its on record in Parliament he did.

The numbers of contractors was being reduced for months, ANA were using zoom for help weeks ago.

By the time the situation was dire, it was all a little too late.

Johnson and Raab, as many tories are starting to realise, are way out of their depth, they are there because they are brexitiers, as is the rest of the cabinet.

@PickUpAPepper

The idea of an EU army was repeatedly quashed by the UK in favour of NATO. We'll probably see one slowly start to surface.

Nah, there will probably be more collaboration in areas (as we do with France now), but each country will keep their own military, its foolish not to even if you largely share the same values and are likely to fight the same wars. There are already deployments and exercises involving other countries, possibly just more of that too rather than an actual eu army. America spends so much though I don't think many can match it.

@Justanotherlurker

A news report that cites SNP and Labour calling out a tory doesn't mean he should stand down.

He should, but him making that phone call is getting into the relms of alternative history of how this would have panned out, at the time it was 'understood' Kabul would not have been over run, it wouldn't have made a difference in the rush to the airport and being left to the UK and French special ops doing saftey runs whilst the Americans stood by and the Swedes blocked numbers and fucked off.

It's looking for easy scapegoats. Raab can get sacked and the situation is still shit, he could have come back and the situation would still be the same.

Both Raab & Johnson should go because they have allowed 100s of brits to be in Taliban occupied Kabul, with limited chance of getting out.

US forces have also rescued a few foreigners but the numbers are tiny compared to the many 1000s who are trapped in Kabul.

Ha you think it needs a shoehorn to bring up tory uselessness? They're scum and all they will care about is how their halfh-horse mates can squeeze a few billion from this. And as for "veering right'', we've done that for years and look at the catalogue of disasters. Enough medieval, me me me, low intelligence conservatism.

As much as it pains me to defend Raab, someone on the inside told me that he is one of the few who is actually on top of his brief.

Surely having to get to the airport and fly would have meant being offline for some time during a rapidly unfolding situation. Possibly being too generous of his motives. I don't think he should have left the country personally.

@Wheretoeattweenandteen

I've just googled it.

36 hours and he didn't respond

36 hours and our partner didn't respond. Wow.

Biden doesn't have to like us, he can think this special relationship is a pile of shit.
He can go down a new path but 36 hours in an absolutely major major operation with us trailing behind with our staff, our soldiers....

36 hours.

So what?

It was last Monday, the withdrawal had happened, the Taliban were almost in control.

Anyway, Biden has utter contempt for Johnson, he sees him as a trump like clown.

Our fault for electing a fucking moron.

The withdrawal has been agreed a long time and has been going on for months .I don’t quite understand why more people did not leave more quickly ?

Is it because they just totally underestimated the taliban ? Or over estimated the Afghan army , who just fight allegedly for money rather than power ?

And as much as I am not sure what has happened the treatment of women and children is down to the Taliban , and not western governments . Why are so many of those trying to escape the men ? Why are they not defending their women ? Genuine question ? I don’t understand .

A news report that cites SNP and Labour calling out a tory doesn't mean he should stand down.

I'm not influenced by the politics of the people calling Raab out, of course other parties will use it as a stick to beat the Tories with but I'm politically homeless and non partisan.

He should, but him making that phone call is getting into the relms of alternative history of how this would have panned out, at the time it was 'understood' Kabul would not have been over run, it wouldn't have made a difference in the rush to the airport and being left to the UK and French special ops doing saftey runs whilst the Americans stood by and the Swedes blocked numbers and fucked off.

I understand your point but given his job I think returning from holiday would have signalled he understood the gravity of the situation and was rolling up his sleeves to try to find solutions. It's been widely reported that Biden received warnings from various quarters including intelligence agencies and embassy staff about the rate at which the Taliban were advancing. In mid July, 23 senior embassy staff signed a cable to the administration warning that the situation was deteriorating and they had grave concerns about the withdrawal of troops. This, by all accounts, is almost unheard of and effectively amounts to career suicide. The rate at which the Taliban took control of districts and the collapse of the ANA should have given us a heads up that we didn't have the months we anticipated.

It's looking for easy scapegoats. Raab can get sacked and the situation is still shit, he could have come back and the situation would still be the same.

I agree. I went off for a bath and reflected on that, sacking him now would not be helpful although I don't think it would be scapegoating, he wouldn't be sacked because he caused the problem but because he failed to meet the obligations of his position in a crisis.