Taliban enter Kabul

[tttigress]

I was in my early 20's when 9/11 happened, the last 20 years has been overshadowed by endless wars without clearly defined objectives (original point of going into Afghanistan was to "get" Al Qaeda, there was then massive mission creep)

AIBU to think the last 20 years in Afghanistan was a total waste of time?

Pick up, actually they did try and help on issues, like basic humanity eg give prisoner water, cover up the dead, don't abuse little boys.

I do think they should have tackled different things personally, especially with women and girls in rural areas etc but they didn't just stay back and drop drone bombs in poor people

@Justanotherlurker

Yes and we should all be angry with the US administration. It is a monumental fuck up. Heavens knows where the world is heading, but I know we are going to need a stronger and united European military capacity in coming years.

They either had to colonise or leave eventually after successfully or unsuccessfully attempting to force your ideology on the nation. They can't stay forever if you choose the second option, and outside of Kabul the ideology was largely rejected.

All presidents since Obama have gone for the second option, the way its been handled is a shit show, but the ANA are not absolved of critisim either, but this is primarily on Biden.

I do not believe we were forcing our ideology on Afghanistan. If you research the history and go fairly deep in time, deeper than 1919, you will see the country has been invaded many times. Most countries have been of course. The Islamic regime under the Taliban and Al Qaeda is very recent.

I will comment on the forcing of ideology. One of the main principles under the UN is that countries should be free to govern their own policies, but not interfere with other sovereign states. That seemed fair enough in the 1970's and a couple of decades later, but this is 2021 and a lot has changed in many societies since then.

In my opinion, military intervention in any country serves a just cause these days where the objective is to destroy a system that keeps women in slavery, children uneducated, forces marriage, executes gays and enforces FGM. If armies can come together with a common cause to defeat the Taliban on that basis and allow a democrat government to flourish in Afghanistan with the rights of all protected then I would support it. There can be no more just cause for war than that. It is one of the key lessons from WW2 of course.

Just to be clear, the Taliban are a new occupying army forcing a non-democratic system on its population, using execution, rape and abduction of women as a tool of 'state'.

There are layers and layers of hierarchy in the west, as in any large human structure, many different interests and diversity at the edges of power structures. Biden tells us it was never about women's rights. For his level, it will have been about the game of nations and keeping the US on top. Money will have sat right next to him, whispering in his ear. I don't doubt that for many people it was about women's rights, or about education, or peacekeeping, or whatever the specialism of the many other interested groups was. Ordinary British soldiers over there are going to be appalled and traumatised by what they are seeing. However you can't overlook how much money has been made, the same as in Iraq. There are sources that said abuse of boys came back under the Americans: the Taliban, they say, stamped it out. Perhaps in city areas: perhaps in rural areas it wasn't so.

Yy audit.

@PickUpAPepper

The idea of an EU army was repeatedly quashed by the UK in favour of NATO. We'll probably see one slowly start to surface.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/aug/21/after-afghanistan-the-pax-americana-is-over-as-is-nato-about-time-too

..but it won’t be cheap….

And mean while the taliban take the day off to visit a few tourist sites and take selfies.

The whole situation is pretty surreal and I hope some of the comments are tongue in cheek as it is pretty fucked up if some think they deserve their day off.

Biden didn't have a workable evacuation plan, things were left too late (why are visa applications being processed at the airport when there are just days left until the deadline),

Indeed, but I read in the press some weeks ago about the need to get interpreters out. Why weren't we processing visas then? But I agree, it's easy to be wise after the event. I felt sick for the people trying to escape and sickened that our poor soldiers were left to try to deal with the crisis as best they can.

[quote Justanotherlurker]Unconfirmed French inteligence and rumours online of ISIS operating in the area now.

twitter.com/joel_rayburn/status/1429039165937799175?s=21

twitter.com/suddafchaudry/status/1429093342210498562?s=21[/quote]

I doubt that. The Taliban and ISIS don't work well together. In fact, the Taliban apparently pulled an ISIS leader out of Kabul prison and executed him.

This is an excellent interview with Rory Stewart who spent 3 years working in Afghanistan to set up a charity. I'm not a conservative voter but I do find it comforting that there are still thoughtful and credible people in politics, Rory Stewart is one of them.

ISIS want to create a new state, ie they need land. Unless they replace the Taliban completely, they will never get Afghanistan or any part of it. The chances of IS replacing the Taliban is 0%. How much land does IS now have in Iraq or Syria?

I understand the protesters anger but this crisis was made in the WH. American NATO allies were not involved in the decision making process or informed of the abrupt withdrawal of US troops. We are now scrambling to deal with the fall out and are actually doing a much better job of the evacuation than the US

The withdrawal date of all US forces to leave was announced, we knew but the sun loungers of Crete were more appealing.

Eu looking very military weak
Apparently, only France and UK have decent military?

Also very weak, we can't even mount a supply and command operation against a 3rd world force without US help...

Sorry that should read announced in April..

True and also the Taliban are apparently convinced ISIS is a US backed organisation used to destabilise the region.

Re the Sun Lounger, the Times reports
NEW: Dominic Raab was told by Downing Street to return home on Friday 13 August as Afghanistan slipped into chaos. Why did the foreign secretary not fly in until the small hours of Monday morning? Because Boris Johnson said he could stay on holiday...

Also very weak, we can't even mount a supply and command operation against a 3rd world force without US help...

We will have to learn how to. The French and UK have navvies and of course the nuclear deterrent. And a strong military fighting history. Europe could become the powerbase for organisations to reassert democracy in their home countries - there is a thought.

I wonder what a pacifist might think today about fighting a just cause that establishes the rights of 50% of the worlds' population? We could do an entire thread on that I think......

I doubt that. The Taliban and ISIS don't work well together. In fact, the Taliban apparently pulled an ISIS leader out of Kabul prison and executed him.

I agree it is rumours after all, but enemy of my enemy situation is happening in the Middle east at the minute, it's in their collective interest, hence why China is making in roads.

Audit, let's face it, it's over bloody due

Yes it is. It is worth more than oil.

Oh, did you mean the new thread?!?

Establishing the rights of half the world's population

The withdrawal date of all US forces to leave was announced, we knew but the sun loungers of Crete were more appealing.

The deadline was announced but when things seemed to be escalating out of control Biden would not even take or return a phone call from Boris Johnson.

Bagram Airbase was abandoned by US forces without informing the Commander of the Afghan military who were also stationed there, the commander was informed several hours after the US military left that they were gone for good and with them the contractors responsible for keeping Afghan aircraft in service.

Yes. And maybe I should start a thread on that also. I am one of the other half, the privileged half.

The withdrawal date of all US forces to leave was announced, we knew but the sun loungers of Crete were more appealing.

Why are you still trying to shoe horn your anti Tory agenda into this, the US abandoning 40,000 of its own citizens behind enemy lines whilst outright lying to your allies saying they will defend Kabul would not make a difference if some people where away, you are also glossing over the fact that whilst they where away the tories you despise where trying to get through to Biden for 36 hours, it's far more nuanced than your immediate 'Tory BAD!1!1" narrative that you have tried to shoe horn in from the start.

Also very weak, we can't even mount a supply and command operation against a 3rd world force without US help...

Who do you mean by 'we'.

Just another

I have read it seems Biden cut everyone off but do you have a link to the 36 hours