Taliban enter Kabul

[tttigress]

I was in my early 20's when 9/11 happened, the last 20 years has been overshadowed by endless wars without clearly defined objectives (original point of going into Afghanistan was to "get" Al Qaeda, there was then massive mission creep)

AIBU to think the last 20 years in Afghanistan was a total waste of time?

@Xenia

All I can say is we tried for 20 years and paid a lot (from the UK) to try to help. Also it was 1919 when Afghanistan. In 1842 the British took Kabul and Afghanistan stopped being a British Protectorate in 1919. Other countries have tried to go in there. We gave up all that original control in 1921. Now we have to keep out of it.

Yes withdrawal has caused problems but if not now then when? We need to concentrate on the people of the UK many of whom need help and money and medical care and all sorts. We are no longer an empire on which the sun never sets. This is a time to concentrate on our homeland here. It is very sad indeed that people in many countries suffer so badly, but we cannot do it all.

Problem is when these countries harbour people who will do us harm in the UK. What then?

No we can't do it all and its certainly very worrying that the UK, despite being one of the top military powers in the world, cannot provide air cover & logistics against a very small military force, nor can't get any help to do so (though that maybe because we never tried?)

I just find it amazing that anyone thinks £20 billion spent over 20 years would solve the UKs many and varied problems.... yet doesn't seem to be bothered by 115 billion for HS2 or 200 billion on Trident.

I really don't understand why UK keeps following the US around like a lapdog.

Because otherwise they'd had to admit that 'Global Britain' is nothing more than an empty slogan?

notimagain

I think you may have misunderstood what I've written. I'm don't think the US military are in anyway to blame for what is happening.

I really don't understand why UK keeps following the US around like a lapdog.

To keep up the pretence of the 'Special Relationship'.

I just find it amazing that anyone thinks £20 billion spent over 20 years would solve the UKs many and varied problems

Yep. £20bn is 11 days of tax revenue.

FOJN

Ah, apologies I misunderstood..

Jasjas

its certainly very worrying that the UK, despite being one of the top military powers in the world, cannot provide air cover & logistics against a very small military force, nor can't get any help to do so (though that maybe because we never tried?

We were trying as part of NATO, at least for a while…but to run something of the scale required needs the US on board…

It’s hard to come up with numbers for the Taliban for probably obvious reasons but various sources come up with 200,000 “combatants” of some sort..so they are not really a very small force.

If the Taliban stuck to fighting conventionally perhaps in large formations out in the countryside then all that lovely high tech kit the west had would have probably finished them off a long time ago…they aren’t daft, they didn’t, so we haven’t.

As far the UK being a top military power, well it’s highly ranked but all things are relative..

“Air cover”: Sources vary but generally it is reckoned the States has something like 3000 combat aircraft, the UK just over 200…

“Logistics”: I’m not sure of the exact split when it comes to transport aircraft but I know the UK air transport force is somewhat thin in the air, so to speak due to funding/replacement of the C-130 fleet (and we on,y have one airfield dedicated to transport operations), the US air lift capacity is gobsmackingly large in comparison, multiple bases, multiples of airframes…

Ultimately the UK can still do some things extremely well but large scale high intensity operations for an almost unlimited period several thousand miles from the UK…nope…though we do have the nice new aircraft carriers, and a handful of aircraft to put on them. The UK can perhaps, to use the phrase beloved of politicians “punch above our weight” briefly, on occasions, but other than that.?

You cannot run a campaign without boots on the ground. Missiles would be useless because the Taliban would move into residential areas for shelter. The UK is not going to run an infantry and armoured campaign, like the US had to do twice in Fallujah (Iraq) in 2004, despite Afghanistan having the best claim now for intervention since WW2 (IMO). If we cannot save an entire society in 2021 then what just cause is any future war?

I don't think it's that surprising that the Afghan army didn't try fighting the Taliban.

I mean, what is the point of risking your life for the regime that was being propped up by the US- hopelessly corrupt and doing little for the people.

And Afghanistan is a very conservative country in general culturally. So maybe the soldiers thought that the Taliban would not be worse, might actually be an improvement? Maybe they thought that having the Taliban would provide them and their families with more stability? The country has had foreign countries interfering in their lives, causing decades of war and uncertainty. Maybe for many Afghans the Taliban are the least worse out of their choices.

@FOJN

The more I see the more convinced I am that the chaos is intentional. It's inconceivable that the US military are so incompetent that they could not organise the evacuation of US citizens and allies.

The Biden administration was told repeatedly this would happen, they were not caught with their pants down as they would have us believe. The Afghan Army were set up to fail, they could not hold the Taliban without US Air support, which was withdrawn.

Too many decisions have been made which run in opposition to logic if your intention was to leave the country and safely evacuate everyone you were obliged to get out. The Taliban harboured terrorists who seek to destroy the west, why the fuck would you take them at their word with regard to a peaceful transition of power.

There are many other questions which raised by the decisions taken by the Biden administration.

Why are they unable/unwilling to give figures for the exact number of people who need to be evacuated?
Why was the evacuation of US citizens and allies left until after most of the military had been withdrawn?
Why were they not give clear instructions for the evacuation plan?
Why has the US military left so much hardware for the Taliban to commandeer?
Why was Bagram Airbase abandoned to the Taliban?
Why has the military not retained control of other airfields to give them more options for managing the evacuation?
How have the remaining military ended up corralled in Kabul Airport, where they are sitting ducks and unable to increase their perimeter to ensure safe passage to those who need to evacuate?

I'm not a military strategist but there are some glaring errors there. I would have thought hope for the best, plan for the worst was a better strategy.

I wonder what the end game is, follow the money is usually a good suggestion but the only ideas I have seem batshit crazy.

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/08/20/biden-afghanistan-kabul-chaos-taliban-evacuation-505600

Good article here with some of the nitty gritty. Eg Bagram was closed because the US troops at the time couldn't secure both Kabul airport and Bagram, and Bagram was further away, and harder to get to for those evacuating, than Kabul. Lots of other detail too.

@snowballer

Thanks for the link..

By Thursday evening, the Pentagon announced that 3,000 additional troops were being rushed in to secure Kabul’s Hamid Karzai International Airport….

I’ve been hearing elsewhere that some/many of those troops were still in the region having only very recently left Afghanistan, supposedly en-route home/elsewhere..such was the speed of the collapse.

*The Guardian has learned that some in government, however, believe there is a shift by UK ministers and the military towards dealing directly with the Taliban and legitimising their role – a position that would anger those who believe they have not changed.

Gen Sir Nick Carter, the head of the British armed forces, said on Wednesday he thought the Taliban wanted an “inclusive Afghanistan” and described them as “country boys” who had “honour at the heart of what they do”. Asked on Sky News about the Taliban’s repression of women, Carter said: “I do think they have changed and recognise Afghanistan has evolved and the fundamental role women have played in that evolution.”*
www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/18/britain-fears-us-forces-may-pull-out-kabul-airport-within-days?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Right... I think you can forget about that support, Ahmad: www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/son-slain-afghan-hero-massoud-vows-resistance-seeks-support-2021-08-19/

Snow baller, great article thank you.

So the actual us embassy burned passports of afghan interpreters etc! So they don't know who is eligible to get out.

They were asked and told since April they need lists to help people.

They didn't do it.

Wow.

Gen sir nick Carter

I get the general impression (from my arm chair ) that Biden doesn't value any relationship with us at all really.

I feel very proud of our military and consular staff in the way they are handling this chaos.

Not thinking of themselves the ambassador and his staff have remained at the airport to process visas, unlike the US equivalent who were apparently no where to be seen yesterday.

Young soldiers are having to deal with gut wrenching decisions that they were never trained for. They are not diplomats or administrative officers. Yet they are having to calm and organize thousands of people, many of whom have no right to access to the UK and should not be getting in the way. They are having to examine paperwork and attempt to prioritise UK nationals and their families.

snowballer

Thank you for the article, it explains the scramble of the last week very well but the decisions which lead to the crisis in Kabul were made long before. Negotiations with the Taliban started in February last year which should have given enough time for an orderly and safe withdrawal. We've known the deadline for months and years thousands of people remain trapped.

For anyone interested here's a link to an excellent documentary about the various conflicts in Afghanistan since the 1970's. The story is told by some of the incredibly brave women of the country, at least one was still in Kabul when it fell to the Taliban, I dread to think what their fate maybe.

@memberofthewedding

I feel very proud of our military and consular staff in the way they are handling this chaos.

Not thinking of themselves the ambassador and his staff have remained at the airport to process visas, unlike the US equivalent who were apparently no where to be seen yesterday.

Young soldiers are having to deal with gut wrenching decisions that they were never trained for. They are not diplomats or administrative officers. Yet they are having to calm and organize thousands of people, many of whom have no right to access to the UK and should not be getting in the way. They are having to examine paperwork and attempt to prioritise UK nationals and their families.

This is so true. We have someone we are close to at the airport. Today she had a seven-yea- old with gunshot wounds and a baby about a year old separated from it's mother. We are very proud of her, but also very worried for her safety and ability to return to the UK, should the Taliban forces decide the evacuation is taking too long. A woman in UK military uniform is not going to be protected by the Red Cross she is wearing. Hard for the families and partners of all those deployed and hard for those deployed trying to bring order to chaos.

This must be a very worrying time for you @lemonRoses. What a truly dreadful position for these soldiers to be put in.

There was a politician being interviewed today and was asked how long our troops would remain carrying out the evacuations and he said very close behind the last US military to depart. What a mess.

Bidens a raging plastic paddy, expect nothing but performative brit hate from him

@mrshoho

This must be a very worrying time for you *@lemonRoses*. What a truly dreadful position for these soldiers to be put in.

There was a politician being interviewed today and was asked how long our troops would remain carrying out the evacuations and he said very close behind the last US military to depart. What a mess.

Much her for her parents and it is the role she has chosen and is proud to do - but still hard to see impact on our son. We're rather hoping we are ahead of the US troops pulling out finally.

They are thinking it may be sooner rather than later, but that leaves another worry about people who aren't evacuated. Such a horrible situation for the ordinary Afghan people.

Much worse for her parents that is.

• and in absolutely boiling heat the soldiers are out there in all that gear.

What is food situation like at airport, someone had charity to raise money for people stuck there.

For nappies etc!!

The sanitation issue?

Apparently the UK troops are passing through many who should be applying at the USA entrance or who are nationals of other countries. It must be very difficult to make such decisions when there are people waiting in the crowd holding up UK passports. I wonder if the American troops are being so liberal with people who have gone to the "wrong" gate.

FOJN very good film on that link particularly showing the Afghan girls when they were free in the 60s or70s in modern Western clothes, swimming suits etc and now under fundamentalist Islam. It is a bitl like the problem Iran has had - people in the cities liking smart phones, western things etc and huge numbers in poverty in the countryside sticking to very traditional values.

Leaving after 20 years was never going to be easy and I don't think the US or UK/EU have done too badly so far. It cannot be done in a way that is not messy and the Afghan people do not have the stomach for a fight despite any US/EU training and weapons in most of the country as far as I can see. That does not mean I am not sympathetic to the plight of those suffering over there and I am always happy to shout from the rooftops that any religion or culture that keeps women down is objectively and morally wrong.

However the UK has many problems and we are constantly being told our ancestors were bad eg for having the UK protectorate over Afghanistan until 1919 so I am sure most countries are happier these days if we keep out of their affairs entirely. I am quite happy to leave it to China or Russia or just Afghanistan to manage their own affairs and we all just try to keep separate and apart. We have a massive budget deficit in the UK, massively high taxes and many of us work extremely hard - our home front is now the key place where money needs to be concentrated to try to house and provide medical care to citizens in the UK.