Taliban enter Kabul

[tttigress]

I was in my early 20's when 9/11 happened, the last 20 years has been overshadowed by endless wars without clearly defined objectives (original point of going into Afghanistan was to "get" Al Qaeda, there was then massive mission creep)

AIBU to think the last 20 years in Afghanistan was a total waste of time?

It never had to be like this it's horrific

@Xenia

FOJN very good film on that link particularly showing the Afghan girls when they were free in the 60s or70s in modern Western clothes, swimming suits etc and now under fundamentalist Islam. It is a bitl like the problem Iran has had - people in the cities liking smart phones, western things etc and huge numbers in poverty in the countryside sticking to very traditional values.

Leaving after 20 years was never going to be easy and I don't think the US or UK/EU have done too badly so far. It cannot be done in a way that is not messy and the Afghan people do not have the stomach for a fight despite any US/EU training and weapons in most of the country as far as I can see. That does not mean I am not sympathetic to the plight of those suffering over there and I am always happy to shout from the rooftops that any religion or culture that keeps women down is objectively and morally wrong.

However the UK has many problems and we are constantly being told our ancestors were bad eg for having the UK protectorate over Afghanistan until 1919 so I am sure most countries are happier these days if we keep out of their affairs entirely. I am quite happy to leave it to China or Russia or just Afghanistan to manage their own affairs and we all just try to keep separate and apart. We have a massive budget deficit in the UK, massively high taxes and many of us work extremely hard - our home front is now the key place where money needs to be concentrated to try to house and provide medical care to citizens in the UK.

WTAF!?

@HHschultz. It’s alright saying WTAF!? but wake up and smell the coffee. Look which way the public has voted the last 5 years or so.

@xenia Sunni Islam is not indigenous to Afghanistan. The Taliban are also invaders.

we don't have 'massively high taxes'. Some of us would be prepared to pay more if it went into things like education and the health service. As i is, much money goes to Johnson's cronies, so perhaps it's as well that taxes are low.

[quote Audit]**@HHschultz. It’s alright saying WTAF!? but wake up and smell the coffee. Look which way the public has voted the last 5 years or so.

@xenia Sunni Islam is not indigenous to Afghanistan. The Taliban are also invaders.[/quote]
Yes, how anyone could vote Tory is beyond me, I'm in Scotland and feel as far removed from them as you can possibly be. Let's all worry about the "home front", while people including Children are in a situation reminiscent of Hell. How do people think like that and exist, sleep and eat!

Am watching the coverage on Sky News. It’s a nightmare. There needs to be more resources on the ground at get more people onto flights. At some point the Taliban are going to stop anyone else leaving and all those who have helped the British government and Army will be tracked down and killed.

As an animal lover I am very pleased to hear that the Afghans working in the animal shelters are getting visas to come to the U.K. and arrangements are being made to transport over to the U.K. the animals they are caring for.

MOSCOW, August 19./TASS/. Russia is ready to provide civil planes to evacuate Afghan nationals who want to leave the country to any other state, Foreign Ministry Spokeswoman Maria Zakharova told a briefing on Thursday.

"In the light of the situation that we now see at the airport of Kabul and the inability of some Western countries to arrange the evacuation of their diplomats, military and civilians from Afghanistan, to say nothing about Afghan nationals who cooperated with them, and their families who want to leave the country but have no possibility we would like to say the following: In order to prevent the worsening of the humanitarian situation in Afghanistan, we are ready to provide the services of the Russian civil aviation to ensure the flight of any number of Afghan nationals, including women and children, to whatever foreign countries that will show an interest in receiving and accommodating them," the diplomat said.

"Representatives of the new authorities in Afghanistan have assured us that there are no fundamental obstacles for the arrival in Kabul and departure of Russian civil aircraft. The safety of the planes, their crews and passengers is guaranteed," the diplomat added.

Top trolling by Russians....

Xenia yes, women and children will be raped, probably multiple times, and given to Taliban men as "wives".

Women will have no rights or voice . Anyone looking at a Taliban thug the wrong way will be tortured and or killed. Any woman who had a good job better hide and quick.

Anyone who is thought to have helped the western forces will be killed, along with gays, anyone who does not follow the extremeTaliban's religious mania. etc etc etc

But they are foreign, so screw them ( head in hands emoji)

@Parker231

Am watching the coverage on Sky News. It’s a nightmare. There needs to be more resources on the ground at get more people onto flights.

More resources we put onto the ground at Kabul means the more we have to get out when this operation gets rolled up…and that might not be easy and might have to be done in a hurry.

I’m happy to be corrected but as I understand it the main problem with getting people out is not a lack of overall resources at Kabul, it’s the Taliban restricting access to the airport, and tonight there’s also possibly a problem with capacity at regional airports such as Qatar which the US air lift flights have been shuttling in and out of.

It cannot be done in a way that is not messy and the Afghan people do not have the stomach for a fight despite any US/EU training and weapons in most of the country as far as I can see.

I have to disagree. As more information comes out about the resources and support available to the ANA it becomes clearer that they were never going to be able to defeat the Taliban. News reports claim the ANA was 300k strong but a Newsnight investigation found it was likely to be nearer 50k. There is widespread corruption, senior army officers have been claiming salaries for ghost soldiers; they only exist on paper. The defence contractors who were helping the ANA with maintenance of the Afghan air fleet have all left so the Afghan military was grounded, they had no chance against the Taliban.

Earlier in the year a bipartisan group (Democrats and Republicans) recommended that a residual armed force of approx 4500 US military personnel would be sufficient to prevent Afghanistan descending to chaos and rule by warlords, their advice was ignored. It's understandable that the US population want there troops to return but the US has a military presence in over 100 countries. No US soldiers have died in Afghanistan since February 2020. Losses for the ANA have been much higher than for allied forces by quite some order of magnitude, to suggest they didn't have the stomach for the fight is offensive.

The intention to withdraw troops has been in the pipeline for 18 months, there are simply no excuses for the crisis currently unfolding. There is going to be an entirely preventable massacre at Kabul airport which could cost the US more military personnel than the whole of the preceding 20 years. It is absolutely unforgivable.

Can I ask a very dense question?

Why are there so many British nationals out there? Does British nationals mean something other than British citizens? I might not be wording it right. What on earth are all these people doing in Afghanistan? Animals charities? NGOs? I’m surprised all that added together is more than a couple of hundred. Am I very naive?

To be blunt, are many of the people trying to get into the airport trying it on? I know, they are desperate to leave. But are they eligible?

I'm wondering how they can possibly get people through the crush.

I can't Imagine the disease, covid etc... With people crushed in all that in immense heat.

Can't believe it's now coming out that taliban and Al queda are basically one.

Shows what an absolute fucking mockery religion is with these nasty brutal drug cartel totally violent and abusive bastards "preying" watching over the locals at prayer.

There are reports of approx 4000 British nationals and eligible Afaghans stranded in Kabul. They will include embassy staff, civilians in support roles with the military, specialist contractors, charity workers, interpreters etc. The families of the eligible Afghans will also be included.

I'm sure there are plenty of people at the airport who are understandably desperate to leave but are not eligible, my heart go out to them. I saw images earlier of parents passing babies over the wall to soldiers, the parents knew they would have to stay and probably be killed but they wanted to save their children, I cannot even comprehend that level of desperation.
We have a duty to evacuate those who helped allied forces.

"trying it on"

attempting not to get brutally murdered you mean?

Members of ANA are joining the Northern Alliance which is apparently gaining some ground against the Taliban. Ahmad Massoud is gathering the mujahideen against the Taliban with former ANA soldiers joining him. This narrative of Afghans have no stomach for a fight is wrong.

Yet their former allies' governments are already saying they're prepared to acknowledge and work with the Taliban.

@wewereliars

"trying it on"

attempting not to get brutally murdered you mean?

yes I can't imagine they're putting themselves in that situation for the fun of it.

attempting not to get brutally murdered you mean?

It was a poor choice of words. Of course they are desperate. I do know that. I was attempting to distinguish in my mind between people who have been told they are eligible and people who are hoping to get on a plane without the necessary paperwork.

There are reports of approx 4000 British nationals and eligible Afaghans stranded in Kabul. They will include embassy staff, civilians in support roles with the military, specialist contractors, charity workers, interpreters etc. The families of the eligible Afghans will also be included.

So Afghan nationals who we have promised safe passage to because they assisted or supported the British in some way? Quite right too.

But not British people working/volunteering out there? Those people are mostly all back, is that right?

I was just trying to understand why the media are referring to all the British nationals stuck in Kabul.

@ApplyWithin

So Afghan nationals who we have promised safe passage to because they assisted or supported the British in some way? Quite right too. But not British people working/volunteering out there? Those people are mostly all back, is that right?

Not sure they are but understandably it’s hard to get exact numbers, breakdown of UK nationals vs allied groups etc…..best I can find is this quote from a Guardian report earlier with regard to RAF flights and changes to security arrangements at the airport:

“ ….The change has helped the flow of passengers and over the last 24 hours 963 people were airlifted out, taking the total to 2,400 including 599 Britons. Most of the rest are Afghans eligible to come to the UK under the Arap relocation scheme, although dependents of people who are already in the UK are also being flown out.”

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/aug/20/gauntlet-to-reach-kabul-airport-taking-evacuees-24-to-48-hours

There are people with dual citizenship, British and Afghan passports, some stuck outside the airport from reports today, so it's not as clearcut I don't think?

My heart breaks more every day. Everyone is focused on getting out the people who worked for them but what about the 20,000 refugees UK are taking, which is on top of Afghans working for the British. Who is taking them now? Or do we wait for them to make perilous journeys to cross borders to neighbouring countries? Why can't we get more Afghan girls out now? I mean no one can dispute they have genuine asylum claims?

They should have just formed the Northern Alliance into a national defence militia 20 years ago

I thought the mujahadeen were the taliban?

Some joined the taliban, some fought against them

@Wheretoeattweenandteen

I thought the mujahadeen were the taliban?

I might be wrong but I think it means fighting for a cause or something so it's not exclusive to the Taliban, like the word Jihad means holy war.

It is a difficult issue and people make good points. However video has been shown today of an Orthodox Jewish man being punched in the face without cause by a man in long white muslim clothes (who I suppose could be someone dressing up to pretend who he was - I don't know) in broad day light. We have 2m muslims and 250,000 jews in the UK and I want us to start with protecting them and the rest of the 67m of us here.

Also I disagree on income taxes. Most people pay about 33% income tax and NI if they work full time. That is pretty high. others pay 47% tax./NI marginal rate (our upper rate) some plus 9% student loan "tax". For higher earners never in British history have we paid so much of the UK's income tax burden. I work half the year to pay income tax and some of the rest to pay all the other taxes - I just paid loads of insurance premium tax for example, never mind nearly £4000 council tax a year.